Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

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Good bloke
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#1861
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#1861
(Original post by UnderPost)
There are cuts happening in the NHS in England- some treatment is now going to be provided by a private company. To me, this is a cut in the NHS (maybe not a cut in the budget, but a cut in what the 'main' NHS provides).
Perhaps you don't realise that most GPs are private companies and not NHS employees - and always have been. Does this make their service any less competent or valuable?
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UnderPost
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#1862
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#1862
(Original post by Good bloke)
Perhaps you don't realise that most GPs are private companies and not NHS employees - and always have been. Does this make their service any less competent or valuable?
GPs never have been NHS employees.

The difference is I CHOOSE my GP. If I don't like his/her style then I can go to another one.

The current "buying of services" within the NHS in England means that if X Ltd "bought" the services of let's say, chiropody from my local NHS trust and I went in for this- I would have no choice but to have that service from that company.

But raising GPs is a good point to raise. In 2004, despite health being devolved- the UK Gov created a new contract for GPs. This new contract meant that they worked less and got new money. This has been imposed on the NHS in Wales (and I'm assuming Scotland, too)- yet it was a British Minister for Health that dealt with it. Had Wales been independent, this crazy decision would never have been made.

If you don't believe me, this is what GPs said: "GPs were so stunned by the terms offered to them when negotiating their new contract that they thought it was a "bit of a laugh""

A decision which is now irreversible - which GP would agree to go back to the old one.

I just feel that because the British State is so centralised in London (yes, even more so than a massive country like the US). They are unable to micro manage anything and so decisions are done quickly without calculation.

I personally feel that smaller countries are able to micro manage better- which is why I feel local councils should have more of a say.
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L i b
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#1863
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#1863
(Original post by UnderPost)
GPs never have been NHS employees.

The difference is I CHOOSE my GP. If I don't like his/her style then I can go to another one.

The current "buying of services" within the NHS in England means that if X Ltd "bought" the services of let's say, chiropody from my local NHS trust and I went in for this- I would have no choice but to have that service from that company.
Er... that's really not how it works.

But raising GPs is a good point to raise. In 2004, despite health being devolved- the UK Gov created a new contract for GPs. This new contract meant that they worked less and got new money. This has been imposed on the NHS in Wales (and I'm assuming Scotland, too)- yet it was a British Minister for Health that dealt with it. Had Wales been independent, this crazy decision would never have been made.

If you don't believe me, this is what GPs said: "GPs were so stunned by the terms offered to them when negotiating their new contract that they thought it was a "bit of a laugh""

A decision which is now irreversible - which GP would agree to go back to the old one.

I just feel that because the British State is so centralised in London (yes, even more so than a massive country like the US). They are unable to micro manage anything and so decisions are done quickly without calculation.
I'm afraid you've rather shot yourself in the foot here: the GMS contract is entirely devolved in Scotland. The Scottish Government chooses to opt in to the UK wide contract.

In point of fact, recent negotiations have seen variations in Scotland, albeit supposedly "within the framework" of UK negotiations. In reality, this is extremely close to a separate GMS contract. Everyone I know in this area is working on the assumption that, given the increasing differences between the NHS in England and Scotland, the UK-wide negotiated position will not exist in a few years.
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L i b
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#1864
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#1864
(Original post by UnderPost)
A right for a country to be able to self-determine it's future. I think that alone makes it a good thing.
Nationalism, like other sorts of identity politics, should be confined to the dustbin of history. "Nations" cannot self-determine anything, only individuals can: and Scottish people self-determine within the framework of a democratic United Kingdom.

(Original post by Maths Tutor)
What a LIAR and DISTORTER.

I had pointed out very clearly who had made the subsidy comment:

"Why don't you reply to the point made by rmpr97: "The UK does not need Scotland in the slightest, in fact, the UK will probably be more economically efficient without having to pay for the subsidy Scotland receives."
Yet you included me in your comments on the subject. I'm not best pleased with that.
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UnderPost
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#1865
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#1865
(Original post by L i b)
Er... that's really not how it works.



I'm afraid you've rather shot yourself in the foot here: the GMS contract is entirely devolved in Scotland. The Scottish Government chooses to opt in to the UK wide contract.

In point of fact, recent negotiations have seen variations in Scotland, albeit supposedly "within the framework" of UK negotiations. In reality, this is extremely close to a separate GMS contract. Everyone I know in this area is working on the assumption that, given the increasing differences between the NHS in England and Scotland, the UK-wide negotiated position will not exist in a few years.

Hence why I said "I assume Scotland too". They may have opted into it, but the Welsh NHS had no choice.
Just like they have no choice if Gove decides to change teachers wages.... even though 'health and education' are meant to be devolved!
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Good bloke
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#1866
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#1866
(Original post by UnderPost)
In 2004, despite health being devolved- the UK Gov created a new contract for GPs. This new contract meant that they worked less and got new money. This has been imposed on the NHS in Wales (and I'm assuming Scotland, too)
The first flaw in your thesis is that this change took place, as you claim, in April 2004. Welsh devolution didn't follow until 2006 so the Welsh government inherited (and hasn't seen fit to change) the previous arrangements. This matter has no bearing on independence as the devolved Welsh and Scottish governments could make any such changes if they wished without independence.
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UnderPost
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#1867
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#1867
(Original post by Good bloke)
The first flaw in your thesis is that this change took place, as you claim, in April 2004. Welsh devolution didn't follow until 2006 so the Welsh government inherited (and hasn't seen fit to change) the previous arrangements. This matter has no bearing on independence as the devolved Welsh and Scottish governments could make any such changes if they wished without independence.
"First flaw", we'll see about that...

Devolution came to Wales in 1999 (Government of Wales Act 1998)- this largely gave powers over health and education to the Assembly. That is why Wales had a smoking ban sooner than England, why student fees were different etc.

The Government of Wales Act 2006 (which gave more powers) didn't come into force until 2007 (sorry- I have to correct your wrong statement).

Following another referendum the Assembly now has primary law making powers.

Yet, even though Wales has these powers and education and health are 'devolved'. They are not allowed to change salaries of teachers nor health professionals.

So you are completely wrong- even if the Welsh Gov did want to change these things (and indeed they do). They couldn't as this power remains in Westminster.

So the point is, Scotland needs independence if it is to have all the tools it needs. As I'm sure there are some things the ScotGov do want to do- but aren't allowed to.


*PS, I'd brush up on your information re: Welsh Devolution. Seems quite poor.
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MatureStudent36
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#1868
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#1868
(Original post by UnderPost)
"First flaw", we'll see about that...

Devolution came to Wales in 1999 (Government of Wales Act 1998)- this largely gave powers over health and education to the Assembly. That is why Wales had a smoking ban sooner than England, why student fees were different etc.

The Government of Wales Act 2006 (which gave more powers) didn't come into force until 2007 (sorry- I have to correct your wrong statement).

Following another referendum the Assembly now has primary law making powers.

Yet, even though Wales has these powers and education and health are 'devolved'. They are not allowed to change salaries of teachers nor health professionals.

So you are completely wrong- even if the Welsh Gov did want to change these things (and indeed they do). They couldn't as this power remains in Westminster.

So the point is, Scotland needs independence if it is to have all the tools it needs. As I'm sure there are some things the ScotGov do want to do- but aren't allowed to.


*PS, I'd brush up on your information re: Welsh Devolution. Seems quite poor.

Standardised salaries make sense. It allows for a degree of cohesion. What next, scottish soldiers on a different pay scale?
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UnderPost
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#1869
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#1869
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Standardised salaries make sense. It allows for a degree of cohesion. What next, scottish soldiers on a different pay scale?
There are different needs in different areas.

In Wales they find it hard to get surgeons to come here and work. This is because a lot of these want to work in big hospitals (so the potential to do research / get promotion is high). These big hospitals tend to be in English cities.

So how can a Trust in Wales compete against this. Who would choose to go to a small community hospital with no chance for promotion FOR THE SAME SALARY.

Who, knows- maybe if this was devolved the WelshGov would increase wages?.

Soldiers- I'd say it'd be quite fair for a soldier based in a barracks in London to be paid more than a soldier paid in somewhere in the Mid of England.


And standardised salaries?
We have different scaled in NI and RoI for the civil service and there isn't chaos is there?

Standard salies is pointless. What d'you want next- standardised salaries throughout the EU?
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MatureStudent36
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#1870
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#1870
(Original post by UnderPost)
There are different needs in different areas.

In Wales they find it hard to get surgeons to come here and work. This is because a lot of these want to work in big hospitals (so the potential to do research / get promotion is high). These big hospitals tend to be in English cities.

So how can a Trust in Wales compete against this. Who would choose to go to a small community hospital with no chance for promotion FOR THE SAME SALARY.

Who, knows- maybe if this was devolved the WelshGov would increase wages?.

Soldiers- I'd say it'd be quite fair for a soldier based in a barracks in London to be paid more than a soldier paid in somewhere in the Mid of England.


And standardised salaries?
We have different scaled in NI and RoI for the civil service and there isn't chaos is there?

Standard salies is pointless. What d'you want next- standardised salaries throughout the EU?

Do you think paying more is going to solve that problem? People often choose to live in more accessible areas not just for money, but for other amenities.

why hasn't the welsh assembly standardised hospitals to allow them to become research? Why hasn't the welsh assembly pulled other strings to attract surgeons such as better terms and conditions?

What this entire separatist argument falls into is people scrabbling over scraps and trying to wrap up emotional arguments into poorly thought out economical arguments.
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MatureStudent36
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#1871
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#1871
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/h...hip.1365594283 So it appears that the SNPs claim of NATO welcoming us with open arms is yet another SNP/Yes Campaign myth blown out of the water.
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UnderPost
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#1872
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#1872
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Do you think paying more is going to solve that problem? People often choose to live in more accessible areas not just for money, but for other amenities.

why hasn't the welsh assembly standardised hospitals to allow them to become research? Why hasn't the welsh assembly pulled other strings to attract surgeons such as better terms and conditions?

What this entire separatist argument falls into is people scrabbling over scraps and trying to wrap up emotional arguments into poorly thought out economical arguments.
I didn't say it would. But it would be a handy tool to have.
But if you have a hospital in Swansea offering £150k and a hospital in Manchester offering £100k. It makes that decision slightly harder than it is at the moment.

The Welsh Government cannot and will never be able to get research intensive hospitals under the present regime- Wales is not allowed to borrow money for such things (which would be necessary).

And you talk about "emotional arguments".... who is it that is raising NATO?. Is being a member of NATO really that important?. If the UK left today, I can't see people queuing up ready to invade!.
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MatureStudent36
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#1873
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#1873
(Original post by UnderPost)
I didn't say it would. But it would be a handy tool to have.
But if you have a hospital in Swansea offering £150k and a hospital in Manchester offering £100k. It makes that decision slightly harder than it is at the moment.

The Welsh Government cannot and will never be able to get research intensive hospitals under the present regime- Wales is not allowed to borrow money for such things (which would be necessary).

And you talk about "emotional arguments".... who is it that is raising NATO?. Is being a member of NATO really that important?. If the UK left today, I can't see people queuing up ready to invade!.

Theres a general shortages if surgeons throughout the UK. In fact, there's a general shortage of surgeons in most country's. So your grand master plan is to borrow more money, which a surgeon isn't actually going to generate revenues to pay back the borrowing, to poach a surgeon from Manchester who in turn are likely increase the salaries of their surgeons to remain competitive. So basically we're still left with the same problem of a shortage of surgeons but with a higher tax bill for the taxpayer to pay safe in the knowledge that any default on a debt will not just affect Wales, but somebody else in the UK will have to pay it.

or the welsh government could encourage more people to become surgeons by leveraging its other devolved power of education.

I'm not a huge fan in giving local government more borrowing powers as they normally spunk the money up the wall and expect somebody else to foot the bill.

not quite emotional on NATO. The first responsibility of any government is the defence of its people. It's not sexy and mis understood by the majority of the population which is why they normally respond with such backward statements as 'who's going to invade us.' SNP has historically been anti NATO, now its pro NATO. But my concern, as with the EU is the SnPs assumption that we'll get automatic entry. This just proves that its not the case.
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MatureStudent36
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#1874
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#1874
(Original post by UnderPost)
There are different needs in different areas.

In Wales they find it hard to get surgeons to come here and work. This is because a lot of these want to work in big hospitals (so the potential to do research / get promotion is high). These big hospitals tend to be in English cities.

So how can a Trust in Wales compete against this. Who would choose to go to a small community hospital with no chance for promotion FOR THE SAME SALARY.

Who, knows- maybe if this was devolved the WelshGov would increase wages?.

Soldiers- I'd say it'd be quite fair for a soldier based in a barracks in London to be paid more than a soldier paid in somewhere in the Mid of England.


And standardised salaries?
We have different scaled in NI and RoI for the civil service and there isn't chaos is there?

Standard salies is pointless. What d'you want next- standardised salaries throughout the EU?
Different countrys.
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UnderPost
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#1875
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#1875
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Different countrys.
NI is part of the United Kingdom.
It does not have the same scales for many jobs in the public sector e.g civil service.
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MatureStudent36
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#1876
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#1876
(Original post by UnderPost)
NI is part of the United Kingdom.
It does not have the same scales for many jobs in the public sector e.g civil service.
You quoted NOrthern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland
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WeeGuy
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#1877
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#1877
(Original post by MatureStudent36)

It's not sexy and mis understood by the majority of the population which is why they normally respond with such backward statements as 'who's going to invade us.'
agree. i hate it when people say things like that. people live in a bubble, they dont understand that threats change. twenty odd years ago we thought there would be a ussr invasion (many times it came close). in 1999 britain came close to war with russia in kosovo, with armies blockading each other.
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Chi019
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#1878
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#1878
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
Doesn't the UK rely on anyone else for anything?

What would happen if China stopped all exports to the UK from tomorrow?
The UK might have to re-develop its manufacturing sector
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L i b
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#1879
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#1879
(Original post by UnderPost)
So the point is, Scotland needs independence if it is to have all the tools it needs. As I'm sure there are some things the ScotGov do want to do- but aren't allowed to.
Indeed there are. Just as there are things a local authority would like to do, but can't. Presumably you aren't advocating the independence of Clackmananshire?

No? Well then that argument is entirely hypocritical.

(Original post by MatureStudent36)
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/h...hip.1365594283 So it appears that the SNPs claim of NATO welcoming us with open arms is yet another SNP/Yes Campaign myth blown out of the water.
Indeed, and it is yet another international organisation effectively telling the SNP that their pseudo-legal nonsense about automatically becoming members of international organisations - whether the EU or NATO - is, and always was, nothing more than bull-****.

The SNP have completely lost that important debate now. I imagine the pro-union parties will bring it up again when Europe is in the spotlight, and I suspect it will do a lot to convince floating voters to reject independence.
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Left Hand Drive
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#1880
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#1880
Scammed for the last 30 years
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