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    (Original post by Rlove95)
    Except, the region is PALESTINE, therefore the 'natives' are PALESTINian, ergo, the land of the natives is PALESTINian land. And anyway, The State of Palestine was not "created" by Israel, it declared its independence from Israel (in '88, not 2000)
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    Israeli military falsifies photograph to justify bombing el-Wafa hospital



    ​“Israel has targeted our hospital based on false and misleading claims. They are targeting medical facilities, the wounded, the sick, and our children, all over the Gaza Strip. They want us to know that nowhere is safe.” Said executive director of el-Wafa hospital, Dr. Basman Alashi.​

    According to the Gazan Ministry of Health, seven out of 13 hospitals, including el-Wafa, have been severely damaged.
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    (Original post by well in the dark)
    Are you for real? Seriously? Over 600 Palestinians have been killed, many arguably deliberately. How many people need to die before you're satisfied? To me as well as most other logical humans, it is not blatantly obvious at all.
    What do you know of Hamas's intents? Have you looked up their terms for ceasefire? Those are their immediate intentions, if only you'd bother looking.
    Hamas is the only resistance of the Palestinian people. Hamas is being condemned as a 'terrorist'. Ergo, Hamas is a victim, same as the Palestinian people.
    How many people need to die before I'm satisfied? What sort of question is that. That is the problem, people are too busy trying to accuse others of being heartless that they can't actually see what is happening. There is a lot of bias involved in this debate and a lot of extreme views on either side. Did I not explicitly say that I was not condoning Israel's actions? Did I not explicitly say that I did not agree with the way Israel is handling the situation, now you're trying to make it out like I want more Palestinians to die?

    My point was that while Israel may not be safeguarding Palestinian civilians well (and therefore not handling the situation well) Israel's intention isn't to kill as many Palestinians as possible because way more than 600 would have died if they were. Israel is capable of killing thousands in a day alone, so while Israel might be acting a bit careless when targeting military targets in civilian areas, Israel isn't just trying to kill Palestinian civilians.

    Israel gains nothing from civilian deaths. They have no reason to kill as many Palestinians as possible because killing many civilians only leads to condemnation from the international community. Hamas on the other hand, is trying to kill as many Israeli's as possible, but failing. The outcomes might be different but the intentions of both are vastly different. That doesn't mean Israel is the 'right' side in all this, frankly I'm disgusted as what is going on in Gaza but it also doesn't mean Hamas is right. Instead of carrying out a 'who is right, who is more right, who is the evil oppressor etc' debate, people should be trying to find out ways to stop the conflict, to stop the fighting and to achieve peace. I'm more leaning on the pro-Israel side because atleast Israel was willing to conduct a ceasefire, whereas Hamas is so hellbent on destroying Israel that they don't care about 'peace'. At the end of the day, if the side that is losing truly cares about its losses, it should be far more enthusiastic in a ceasefire than the side that is 'winning'.

    Hamas is not the victim. You're naive if you think that.
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    (Original post by Rlove95)
    I don't agree with the bully analogy. If you keep kicking and punching someone who is far larger than you, don't be surprised when they kick and punch you back. I might not agree with Israeli, and I might not condone the way Israel is handling this but I certaintly don't buy Hamas as the victim in all of this. Israel is better at defending itself against Hamas, if Hamas had the resources, Hamas would have killed far more Israeli civilians. Hamas wants to kill more people but can't. Thats the difference between the Israeli government and Hamas. While you may argue that Israel isn't safeguarding the Palestinians well enough, it is blatantly obvious that Israel's intention isn't to kill as many civilians as possible, because if it was, far more civilians would be dead now. Probably in the thousands with Israel's resources. However, Hamas is purposely trying to kill as many Israeli's as possible, that is their intent.
    If you keep kicking and punching someone larger than you who has taken all your pocket money and still knocks you out from time to time, should you stop fighting back and just hope that as long as he takes your pocket money, he won't lay a finger on you?

    There is no bully in this fight, there isn't a goodie and a baddie. The innocent Palestinians are the only victims in this fight. Hamas and Israel are the opposing bullies. The civilians caught in between the two forces are the victims. Hamas, (Bully no. 1) takes money from the victim, Israel (Bully no. 2) takes double the money taken from the victim away from Hamas, Hamas fails to take it back and suddenly Hamas is the innocent party and Israel is the big bad bully even though really neither are helping the victim (the Palestinians) and both are increasing the suffering of the Palestinians. That is a far more fitting analogy than the overly simplistic and naive analogy you just used.
    Wait! How did the Palestinians get the money from Israel if Israel had no money to give in the first place?

    There's something severely illogical about your thought process.

    So what do you propose? More fighting which leads to more Palestinian deaths? What is the solution to all this? Israel isn't going to go anywhere, no matter how hard Hamas fights, Israel will fight harder. There are only two possible ways this could end, with no more fighting or with more Palestinian deaths. Israel won't lose, and everyone knows that. Hamas has to make the decision, lose more Palestinians or continue a hopeless fight.
    Israel craves legitimacy from the Palestinian people. It can't do this through "hearts and minds" so it does this through subjugation, oppression and massacres.

    For every civilian that Israel kills, HAMAS recruits another 10.
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    (Original post by Rlove95)
    How many people need to die before I'm satisfied? What sort of question is that. That is the problem, people are too busy trying to accuse others of being heartless that they can't actually see what is happening. There is a lot of bias involved in this debate and a lot of extreme views on either side. Did I not explicitly say that I was not condoning Israel's actions? Did I not explicitly say that I did not agree with the way Israel is handling the situation, now you're trying to make it out like I want more Palestinians to die?
    I honestly couldn't give a flying **** what else you said besides 'there would be so many more deaths' were Israel's true enemies the Palestinian people and not Hamas, as if 600 deaths is not satisfactory enough for you to conclude that Israel's agenda is not to wipe out Hamas, but to wipe out the entire Palestinian people.

    Edit: LOL I actually find what you're saying a bit hilarious, despite its open obscenity. 'Did I not say explicitly' etc. - basically, you're expecting me to clear you of any wrongdoing simply because you admit that you're human? For that small mercy you want me to fall at your feet in gratitude?
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    (Original post by well in the dark)
    Oh yeah? You seem very sure of what's going to happen in the future. Fanatic is what comes to mind.

    'Israel won't lose' - Actually, everyone doesn't know that. 'Lose' in what sense? If you count winning by the number of dead Palestinian bodies, then you're right, Israel is winning. But Israel has already lost much of its legitimacy in the eyes of the world. Israel is seriously tyrannical; Israel has conned the world for much of the past 60 years, but no longer.
    Hamas wants the destruction of Israel. Israel loses if Hamas succeeds. Israel is going to be destroyed anytime soon so therefore Israel won't lose. Israel is fighting for its right to exist, Hamas is fighting for the destruction of Israel. The truth is, Israel will continue to exist, Hamas will continue to fight for a hopeless cause.

    Tell me, how will Hamas ever destroy Israel? How do you see Hamas ever succeeding?
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    The impression I get is that Israel would rather end this nonsense and leave Hamas in control of Gaza as long as they leave Israel alone but Hamas are on some sort of religious mission to conquer Israel and establish it as an Islamic state (?), hence unwilling to actually stop this once and for all.


    Israel probably don't care all that much that they are killing civilians as collateral alongside military targets, they aren't Israelies, so nothing but number to them. I think acusing them of deliberately targeting civilians is misguided though. Irsael gain nothing from it and actually loose international support/credibility while only strengthening anti-israeli feelings among Palestinians. Hamas are not the sort of organisation to call a truce because they want the killing of Palestinians to end, so Israel can't even use "we'll stop killing your civilians" as a bargaining chip in negotiations because Hamas don't seem to care really. Hamas would seem to prefer fighting to the last man, woman or child in the name of their cause than accept a permanent peace agreement.While Hamas are in power there will be conflict, any peace will be temporary at best.

    Israel however don't appear to be doing all in their power either. A lot of their continued military action strikes me as nothing more than a show of force and the death of ~29(?) Israelies and kidnapping of this soldier recently just gives them media fodder to continue. Their casualties aren't great enough for Israel to be forced into a ceasefire, Hamas don't care enough about their casualties to be forced into a ceasefire.

    One side has to up the stakes for the other to ensure continued military action is unteneable for both. What worries me slightly is if at anypoint that becomes mutually assured destruction rather than internationally imposed repercutions.
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    (Original post by Rlove95)
    Hamas wants the destruction of Israel.
    And Israel wants the destruction of Hamas so I think we can all agree that at least in their intentions they are equals; in which case, why unjustly demonise one and glorify the other?
    Israel loses if Hamas succeeds.
    And vice-versa.
    Israel is going to be destroyed anytime soon so therefore Israel won't lose.
    Huh?
    Israel is fighting for its right to exist, Hamas is fighting for the destruction of Israel.
    Actually Hamas is fighting for the destruction of Israel because the existence of Israel is not compatible with the existence of Palestine.
    Hamas is Palestinian resistance. Hamas would not exist if Israel did not exist.
    The truth is, Israel will continue to exist, Hamas will continue to fight for a hopeless cause.
    Desperate words of a fanatic.
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    (Original post by Rlove95)
    Tell me, how will Hamas ever destroy Israel? How do you see Hamas ever succeeding?
    I do not see Hamas destroying Israel. I see Israel slowly but surely destroying itself: http://www.5pillarz.com/video/israel...as-themselves/
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    (Original post by Rlove95)
    Hamas wants the destruction of Israel. Israel loses if Hamas succeeds. Israel is going to be destroyed anytime soon so therefore Israel won't lose. Israel is fighting for its right to exist, Hamas is fighting for the destruction of Israel. The truth is, Israel will continue to exist, Hamas will continue to fight for a hopeless cause.
    Awkward and ironic when someone then points out to you that the Likud party, government of Israel, has categorically an unequivocally denied the Palestinians a state, ever.

    Tell me, how will Hamas ever destroy Israel? How do you see Hamas ever succeeding?
    By chipping away:

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    Israeli soldiers accidentally gas themselves, the cowering terrorists; they inflict such and worse on innocents every day:
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    If you keep kicking and punching someone larger than you who has taken all your pocket money and still knocks you out from time to time, should you stop fighting back and just hope that as long as he takes your pocket money, he won't lay a finger on you?



    Wait! How did the Palestinians get the money from Israel if Israel had no money to give in the first place?

    There's something severely illogical about your thought process.



    Israel craves legitimacy from the Palestinian people. It can't do this through "hearts and minds" so it does this through subjugation, oppression and massacres.

    For every civilian that Israel kills, HAMAS recruits another 10.
    No. If someone larger than you is given pocket money that you feel should have been yours years ago, you can't keep kicking and punching them knowing that you will never get it back. You have to make a logical decision, should I continue kicking and punching them only to get beaten up in the process? Should I keep fighting knowing that I will never win or should I try other aims? What is the point of fighting, when fighting leads nowhere. Instead of kicking and punching the 'bully', should I not try to reason with the bully, should I not accept the 'bully's' deal to stop fighting and then hope to negotiate with the 'bully' so that I can continue to live in peace, so that I can atleast hope to get some of the money that was given to the 'bully' by the headteacher back? I'm not saying Palestinians should not do anything, I'm saying that violence isn't the answer. Violence isn't getting them anywhere. There comes a time where you have to accept that the method you are using isn't working. I'm sure if Hamas was more peaceful and wasn't so hellbent on destroying Israel, this wouldn't be happening. Why can't they live peacefully next to eachother? What is the point of getting more and more brusied when you can potentially live in peace with this 'bully'?

    No, the Palestinians are the victim. Hamas is bully no.1, Israel is bully no.2. The point is neither Hamas or Israel are helping the victim, they are fighting over this 'pocket money' but just because Israel is fighting better than Hamas doesn't mean Hamas is suddenly the innocent party because at the end of the day, both are terrorizing and victimising the Palestinians.

    How does Israel crave legitimacy from the Palestinian people? I'm pretty sure all Israel wants to do is live in peace without their neighbours constantly firing rockets at them.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Awkward and ironic when someone then points out to you that the Likud party, government of Israel, has categorically an unequivocally denied the Palestinians a state, ever.



    By chipping away:

    Your point is? That doesn't mean Israel isn't fighting for its right to exist.

    How many Palestinians will have to die during this chipping away process? Will there even be any Palestinians left once Hamas has finally destroyed Israel?
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    (Original post by well in the dark)
    I do not see Hamas destroying Israel. I see Israel slowly but surely destroying itself: http://www.5pillarz.com/video/israel...as-themselves/
    So whats the point of Hamas fighting? If Israel is going to slowly and surely destroy itself, why is Hamas fighting?
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    Israel begging the US for $225 million for Iron Dome parts.

    Netanyahu engages in a little bit of whataboutery as the UN Human Rights Council investigate Israel over war crimes committed in Gaza.

    Tzipi Livni tells the UN Human Rights Council to effectively "**** off"...

    Unconfirmed reports suggesting Israel circumventing HAMAS and Al Qassam Brigades and going for the easier targets of Islamic Jihad.
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    (Original post by Rlove95)
    How many people need to die before I'm satisfied? What sort of question is that. That is the problem, people are too busy trying to accuse others of being heartless that they can't actually see what is happening. There is a lot of bias involved in this debate and a lot of extreme views on either side. Did I not explicitly say that I was not condoning Israel's actions? Did I not explicitly say that I did not agree with the way Israel is handling the situation, now you're trying to make it out like I want more Palestinians to die?
    LOL I actually find what you're saying a bit hilarious, despite its open obscenity. 'Did I not say explicitly' etc. - basically, you're expecting me to clear you of any wrongdoing simply because you admit that you're human? For that small mercy you want me to fall at your feet in gratitude?
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    Netanyahu thinks he knows what decency is
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    (Original post by Rlove95)
    No. If someone larger than you is given pocket money that you feel should have been yours years ago, you can't keep kicking and punching them knowing that you will never get it back. You have to make a logical decision, should I continue kicking and punching them only to get beaten up in the process? Should I keep fighting knowing that I will never win or should I try other aims? What is the point of fighting, when fighting leads nowhere. Instead of kicking and punching the 'bully', should I not try to reason with the bully, should I not accept the 'bully's' deal to stop fighting and then hope to negotiate with the 'bully' so that I can continue to live in peace, so that I can atleast hope to get some of the money that was given to the 'bully' by the headteacher back? I'm not saying Palestinians should not do anything, I'm saying that violence isn't the answer. Violence isn't getting them anywhere. There comes a time where you have to accept that the method you are using isn't working. I'm sure if Hamas was more peaceful and wasn't so hellbent on destroying Israel, this wouldn't be happening. Why can't they live peacefully next to eachother? What is the point of getting more and more brusied when you can potentially live in peace with this 'bully'?
    Giving into the bully is not an option. Bullies, like Israel, prey on weakness and we should stand up to them.

    If the Jews of Germany stood up to Hitler, do you think the US/UK would have supported the Jews or Germany?

    No, the Palestinians are the victim. Hamas is bully no.1, Israel is bully no.2. The point is neither Hamas or Israel are helping the victim, they are fighting over this 'pocket money' but just because Israel is fighting better than Hamas doesn't mean Hamas is suddenly the innocent party because at the end of the day, both are terrorizing and victimising the Palestinians.
    Where did Israel get the pocket money from if they had no pocket money to give?

    Does your history of the conflict only start post-1948 like many Zionists I've had the "pleasure" of debating with?

    How does Israel crave legitimacy from the Palestinian people? I'm pretty sure all Israel wants to do is live in peace without their neighbours constantly firing rockets at them.
    Because as a pre-condition for talks, the negotiating party must recognise the State of Israel.

    HAMAS doesn't which is why Israel wants to destroy it.

    As I have said, look at the comparisons between Gaza (HAMAS - Doesn't recognise Israel) and the West Bank (Fatha - Recognises Israel).

    Israel dare not set up settlements until they have got rid of HAMAS in Gaza.
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    (Original post by Rlove95)
    Your point is? That doesn't mean Israel isn't fighting for its right to exist.
    Which coincidentally is also what the Palestinians are fighting for.

    How many Palestinians will have to die during this chipping away process? Will there even be any Palestinians left once Hamas has finally destroyed Israel?
    They believe that is a price worth paying for justice and the blood of thousands of Palestinians who have perished in this fight against these racist Zionist invaders and occupiers.
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    Learn what 'news' means. "Crude unsophisticated rocket causes 0 deaths and injuries.", which is what the bulk of these cases are, generally don't qualify, certainly not for people in Britain.
 
 
 
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