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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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Original post by well in the dark

LOL I actually find what you're saying a bit hilarious, despite its open obscenity. 'Did I not say explicitly' etc. - basically, you're expecting me to clear you of any wrongdoing simply because you admit that you're human? For that small mercy you want me to fall at your feet in gratitude?

I don't even understand what you are trying to say. How am I being obscene? What wrongdoing have I committed? What wrongdoing do you have to clear me of? You tried to paint me as this heartless villian who doesn't care about all the Palestinians dying, when really I made it clear that I didn't condone Israel's actions. I have no idea why you are talking about mercy and wrongdoings. Is that the only thing out of that long post you could comment on? I don't get why you chose to only comment on that small section of my post.

Reply 1881

anarchism101

Original post by Chindits

Israel withdrew to the 67 lines in Gaza.

But continued to maintain full-scale occupation over the West Bank, maintained effective control over Gaza, and crucially, sovereignty has not been established in either.

Reply 1882

well in the dark

Original post by Rlove95

LOL. You see nothing obscene in saying that '600 people dead is not enough to paint Israel as a ruthless murderer'?

Because I have commented again and again on the other things you say in that post earlier and I am not obliged to address every single idiot who flings his propaganda my way.
Because everything you say is pure speculation and is as such not to be assigned any importance whatsoever.
It is not a fact that Hamas does all that you say it does; all that info you get is from IDF propaganda. IDF propaganda =/= facts. Far from it.
The fact is that Israel is oppressing and murdering. And yet you support Israel.

Because the only thing wrong with what Israel is doing, according to Israelis, is that it's hurting Israel's reputation: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/onslaught-authority-albright.html

Reply 1883

Dario Naharis

Israel are guilty of terrorism not just against the likes of Iran and Palestine but the West too. They are guilty of genocide, guilty of countless human rights violations.These are just facts not opinion. Can't the Jews ever give up? accept that you're doing wrong and not the whole victim in all of this.

Reply 1884

Rlove95

Original post by tsr1269

Giving into the bully is not an option. Bullies, like Israel, prey on weakness and we should stand up to them.

If the Jews of Germany stood up to Hitler, do you think the US/UK would have supported the Jews or Germany?

Where did Israel get the pocket money from if they had no pocket money to give?

Does your history of the conflict only start post-1948 like many Zionists I've had the "pleasure" of debating with?

Because as a pre-condition for talks, the negotiating party must recognise the State of Israel.

HAMAS doesn't which is why Israel wants to destroy it.

As I have said, look at the comparisons between Gaza (HAMAS - Doesn't recognise Israel) and the West Bank (Fatha - Recognises Israel).

Israel dare not set up settlements until they have got rid of HAMAS in Gaza.

Hamas is also a bully, infact Hamas is a far bigger bully than Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organistation that is perfectly fine with using its civilians as human shields against another 'bully'. Atleast Israel tries to protect its citizens, Hamas doesn't care. Hamas isn't standing up for the Palestinians. Hamas is putting them in harms way. Hamas is the bully that throws you at the other bully in order to protect itself, its the bully that pretends to look out for you but only really uses you as a way to achieve its own political aims. Hamas is the bully that hides in your locker knowing that the other bully will search for him there and end up bullying you as a result. Hamas is the bully that could stop you from getting bullied but continues to let you get bullied because the other bully hasn't given him a good enough offer.

I don't know, I don't really get that question, elaborate?

This analogy is just dragging now. My point was that both of these bullies contribute to the suffering of the Palestinians. Neither bullies are in the right because at the end of the day they are both causing suffering. Just because one bully causes it first, or because one bully causes more damage doesn't stop both of them being bullies.

I'm not a zionist. I am neither pro-Israel or pro-Palestine although I'm probably more pro-Israel than pro-Palestine. At the end of the day, 1948 happened. You can't go back to pre-1948. Israel as a state, has been created. It isn't going anywhere, people have established homes there, people will consider it as their home. A democracy has been set up there, for stability, Israel will remain. The question is more about what happens next, instead of 'lets get rid of Israel' because that isn't going to happen. I don't understand what happened in 1948 or before 1948 that well, I don't understand the history of it all that well and I'm not going to pretend I do because I need to far more research into the area to understand it well but I do understand what is happening now. You can't keep looking at the past, because the past ain't coming back. The world needs to figure out what to do next instead of debating the details of 1948 or pre-1948.

Well Hamas is idiotic for that. They are prepared for more people to die just because they don't want to recognise Israel as a state?

Hamas should be destroyed, it is a terrorist organisation that doesnt' care about the Palestinian civilians. If Hamas was constantly attacking Britain you'd want Hamas to be destroyed too.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 1885

tsr1269

Original post by Rlove95

Ah, using the "human shields" argument often quote by ardent Zionists. I wondered if that would make an appearance and you have delivered. Can I see some evidence from a non-biased source please?

I don't know, I don't really get that question, elaborate?

If the Jews of Germany (1939) had started an armed struggle against Germany instead of acting like "chickens to the slaughter", who would the UK/US have supported. Germany or the Jews?

This analogy is just dragging now. My point was that both of these bullies contribute to the suffering of the Palestinians. Neither bullies are in the right because at the end of the day they are both causing suffering. Just because one bully causes it first, or because one bully causes more damage doesn't stop both of them being bullies.

Answer the question: How did Israel get the pocket money to give to HAMAS if Israel didn't have any pocket money to begin with? HAMAS doesn't collect IOU's, you know.

In essence, who was the first bully? Why are you reflectance to answer? Has some old machinery fired up inside your brain? That's called logic, by the way...

I'm not a zionist. I am neither pro-Israel or pro-Palestine although I'm probably more pro-Israel than pro-Palestine. At the end of the day, 1948 happened. You can't go back to pre-1948. Israel as a state, has been created. It isn't going anywhere, people have established homes there, people will consider it as their home. A democracy has been set up there, for stability, Israel will remain. The question is more about what happens next, instead of 'lets get rid of Israel' because that isn't going to happen. I don't understand what happened in 1948 or before 1948 that well, I don't understand the history of it all that well and I'm not going to pretend I do because I need to far more research into the area to understand it well but I do understand what is happening now. You can't keep looking at the past, because the past ain't coming back. The world needs to figure out what to do next instead of debating the details of 1948 or pre-1948.

But how does one determine the future if one doesn't examine the rights and wrongs of the past? How is their fairness if it is not linked to anything? How can there be justice if the crimes committed disappear?

Well Hamas is idiotic for that. They are prepared for more people to die just because they don't want to recognise Israel as a state?

Because if they were to recognise the state of Israel, their claim to the land also extinguishes and so does any hope of retaining that land which was arbitrarily stolen from them.

Hamas should be destroyed, it is a terrorist organisation that doesnt' care about the Palestinian civilians. If Hamas was constantly attacking Britain you'd want Hamas to be destroyed too.

If British citizens overwhelmed the Palestinian population with mass immigration and then demanded their own state through terrorist means within a 20 year period and HAMAS started firing rockets, then I wouldn't blame them.

But you would. In fact, you wouldn't be happy until you had committed genocide against that group of people and settled your own people in that piece of land formerly known as Palestine.

Reply 1886

Rlove95

Original post by well in the dark

Show me where I said that? Its funny how you add quotation marks to a statement that I never said.

Propaganda? What propaganda have I swung your way? Most of the world recognises Hamas as a terrorist organisation. Hamas actually instructs its supports not to show pictures of rockets in civilian areas, that proves that Hamas does put rockets in civilian areas because if they didn't they would not need to tell people to not show pictures of these rockets. Hamas actually encourages 'propaganda' by instructings its supporters to always refer to casualties as 'innocent civilians'. It becomes a case of IDF propaganda v. Hamas propaganda. People like you are the reason why the conflict is still ongoing. You aren't prepared to recognise the errors and wrongdoings of the side you support. You paint Hamas as these perfect freedom fighters when you know deep down that is not the case, you pretend that Hamas isn't using civilian areas for their operations, you pretend that Hamas isn't purposely trying to kill as many Israeli's possible. You pretend that Hamas actually cares about Palestinians and that Hamas is justified in all that it does because Israel is practically the devil reincarnated. You are consumed by so much bias that you are that desperate to create this black and white view of the situation, so much so that you can't take a moment to see the full picture.

I don't support Israel, I don't support Palestine. I support peace between the two. I'm not going to be bullied into taking a side when neither side are right in my eyes.

Reply 1887

SmaugTheTerrible

Original post by Chindits

Classic anti-Israel bigotry.

No matter what Israel does, they are at fault.

According to your 'logic', if they kill too many civilians - they're monsters

If they don't kill so many civilians - they're guilty of not killing too many because of some ridiculous notion about an "alibi"

Amazing how the mind of an anti-Israeli works. It's so hypocritical, but always makes sure any eventuality can be blamed on Israel :biggrin:

But you assume I'm making things up off the top of my head.

Lets look at it purely objectively.

Israel bombed the El-Wafa Hospital. FACT.
Israel killed 4 children playing football on a beach. FACT.
Israel killed an unarmed young man who was looking for is family (there's a video). FACT.

Are you really going to tell me these things didn't happen?

At best they make Israel incompetent and at Worst Murderers.

The incompetence argument fails when an Israeli Official stated that the Soldiers should have been able to differentiate between children and Hamas on the beach.

The incompetence argument fails when you watch the video of the young man who was shot by an Israeli sniper. He was unwarned and surrounded by volunteers helping him locate his family in the rubble. He was walking around and shot dead. No reason whatsoever.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 1888

yo radical one

Original post by Prince Dunlop

Yeah, Israel has withdrawn and the holocaust never happened.

Posted from TSR Mobile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

How ignorant can you get, honestly?

Reply 1889

well in the dark

Original post by Rlove95

I don't support Israel, I don't support Palestine. I support peace between the two. I'm not going to be bullied into taking a side when neither side are right in my eyes.

No-one's bullying you, child.

Presenting facts does not constitute bullying.

Let me rephrase in a more telling manner what you're saying: I acknowledge an oppressor, I acknowledge an oppressed; still, they're both as right or as wrong as each other. I acknowledge an oppressor who is unwilling to admit that he is perpetrating grievous oppressions, as he has been for the past 60 years, but that's all from the past, isn't it? Let's all just forgive and forget, what? No problem if people were killed, kicked out of their homes, stripped of everything they ever had, including their very identities. No problem if the oppressor is denying he ever committing an oppression; no problem if the oppressor, having oppressed in the past, continues to oppress up until the present, and looks ever willing to continue in the future.

Funny how you posted a picture saying "The Truth = Zionist propaganda" and now you're denying you are pro-Israel.
Funny how you're fanatically affirming that 'Israel is not going anywhere but Hamas definitely is' and now denying you're pro-Israel.
Funny how you're subscriing fully to IDF propaganda claiming Hamas uses human shields notwithstanding the utter lack of evidence and still claiming to be not pro-Israel.
Funny how you're calling Hamas a terrorist organisation when it's only a terrorist because Israel considers it as such. Funny how it doesn't look at all as though you'd call Israel a terrorist in spite of the fact that so many logical people, including almost all Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims, would definitely call it a terrorist state. Why should their view matter less? Especially when they have so much more reason to charge Israel with terrorising them, plonking itself as it did, the unwelcome intruder, in their midst?

Reply 1890

Truths

The BBC & The Gaurdian are notorious for being the only 2 news organisations brave enough to scrutinize the Israeli establishment. I remember when the BBC reporters were banned from Downing Street when the Israel's prime minister visited.

Reply 1891

well in the dark

Original post by Rlove95

Show me where I said that? Its funny how you add quotation marks to a statement that I never said.

This is what you said:

While you may argue that Israel isn't safeguarding the Palestinians well enough, it is blatantly obvious that Israel's intention isn't to kill as many civilians as possible, because if it was, far more civilians would be dead now. Probably in the thousands with Israel's resources

You are justifying Israel's assault, saying that it could have been worse. Saying that more people could easily have been killed.
You are directly implying that 600 deaths is not so significant as to accuse Israel of mass murder. You want more deaths, apparently preferably in the thousands, for you to allow that Israel is getting away with murder.

Not only that, but apparently 'it is blatantly obvious' that Israel's intention is not to kill. In spite of nearly 700 deaths now, you are fantastically claiming that 'it is blatantly obvious' that Israel doesn't want to kill.

Who knows, perhaps by tomorrow 1000 innocent lives would have been lost. Perhaps then you'll willingly admit that Israel is to take responsibility for the atrocities it is perpetrating, and cannot get away with blaming Hamas for deaths it has caused.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 1892

Inzamam99

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/israeli-professor-rape-hamas-militiants-mothers-sisters-deter-terrorist-attacks-1457836

An Israeli academic has claimed that raping wives and mothers of Palestinian Hamas militants is the only thing that could deter further terrorist attacks.

The remarks by renowned Middle East scholar Mordechai Kedar of Bar-Ilan University were made three weeks ago after the grim discovery of the bodies of the three kidnapped Israeli teenagers, but the recording was published online (in Hebrew) on Monday.

"The only thing that could deter a suicide bomber is knowing that if caught, his sister or his mother would be raped," said Kedar on Israel Radio Bet

These were made by a former military intelligence man incidentally.

Terrorists vs. Freedom fighters indeed.

Hamas is becoming more legitimate every day and rightly so.

Reply 1893

well in the dark

Original post by Rlove95

Propaganda? What propaganda have I swung your way?

Everything you say in defence of Israel is either speculation or propaganda.

Original post by Rlove95

Most of the world recognises Hamas as a terrorist organisation.

Most of the world also recognise Israel as a legitimate government, in spite of it being a blatantly rogue state. That would be the reason why 'most of the world recognises Hamas as a terrorist organisation'. Another viable reason would also be because most of the world is not Palestine. Most of the world is not Palestinians. Most of the world is not Arabs, not Muslims. The very groups that feel Israel's terror strongly and directly. The very groups that are today widely stigmatised, never victimised, not even in this case.

Original post by Rlove95

Hamas actually instructs its supports not to show pictures of rockets in civilian areas, that proves that Hamas does put rockets in civilian areas because if they didn't they would not need to tell people to not show pictures of these rockets.

Evidence, please, from a non-Zionist, non-IDF source.

Original post by Rlove95

Hamas actually encourages 'propaganda' by instructings its supporters to always refer to casualties as 'innocent civilians'.

Oh, so all the pro-Palestinians, anti-Israelis follow Hamas's orders now? What desperate, unfounded lies.

Original post by Rlove95

It becomes a case of IDF propaganda v. Hamas propaganda.

Sorry, but no.
There is no Palestinian Hasbara.
The IDF has the means to spread propaganda; Hamas on the other hand has no means at all to propagate propaganda. Hamas is sabotaged from all sides.

Original post by Rlove95

People like you are the reason why the conflict is still ongoing.

Right, because I refuse to adopt the common stance that 'it's all past, let us all forgive and forget and live in peace' knowing full well that Israel's intentions when it says that, and it says that often, given its past, present and probably future actions are not peace but deception.

Original post by Rlove95

You aren't prepared to recognise the errors and wrongdoings of the side you support.

Actually, that would be you.
Saying 'I don't believe Israel is doing the best it can' is certainly not the same as saying that 'Israel is wrong'.
Also, I do not 'recognise' the 'errors and wrongdoings' of Hamas because these 'errors and wrongdoings' are all invariably accusations from the Zionists. You have no evidence for them; if you do, why the hell don't you provide it?
Also, I don't 'recognise' any 'errors and wrongdoings' because they simply do not exist. If they did, I would not be on this side.

Original post by Rlove95

You paint Hamas as these perfect freedom fighters when you know deep down that is not the case,

Really? Now you're accusing me of...something? Of 'knowing deep down that it's not true' that Hamas are freedom fighters, yet supporting them? What on earth would be my reason for doing that?

Original post by Rlove95

you pretend that Hamas isn't using civilian areas for their operations,

I am not pretending, I really don't know that Hamas is deliberately using civilian areas for their operations. Any pretending is being done by you and the Zionists you so obviously support in the form of propagating their propaganda. Why do you pretend that Hamas is deliberately using civilian areas for their operations? Do you have proof?

Original post by Rlove95

you pretend that Hamas isn't purposely trying to kill as many Israeli's possible.

What I know of Hamas, I know from Hamas's own sources.
What you know of Hamas, you know from Zionist sources.

Original post by Rlove95

You pretend that Hamas actually cares about Palestinians

You pretend Hamas doesn't give a fig about Palestinians, which is all sorts of ridiculous and absurd, as you have no reason to think that way. That is fanatic thinking.

Original post by Rlove95

and that Hamas is justified in all that it does because Israel is practically the devil reincarnated.

Now you are getting positively hysterical.

Original post by Rlove95

You are consumed by so much bias that you are that desperate to create this black and white view of the situation, so much so that you can't take a moment to see the full picture.

And you suppose that you are oh-so-rational, you who have no qualms, as I have already said, to propagate Zionist propaganda as actual facts; you, who are oh-so-rational, have fathomed all the complexities of the situation; that is why, I suppose, you support the blatant killers.

Reply 1894

username945663

Original post by Inzamam99

Total scumbags, as are their supporters.

Reply 1895

Chindits

Original post by anarchism101

Learn what 'news' means. "Crude unsophisticated rocket causes 0 deaths and injuries.", which is what the bulk of these cases are, generally don't qualify, certainly not for people in Britain.

3 civilian have died in the past 2 weeks.

Hundreds of thousands live in bomb shelters because of these rockets.

BBC bigotry against the state of Israel is well known, which is why they won't release the Balen report.