The Manchester United Thread XIX Watch

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trapking
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#1881
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#1881
lmao laughing at all these silly arguments. These Arsenal **** can **** off.
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FFTypoCorrector
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#1882
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#1882
(Original post by difeo)
find me 5 better players in his age group xx
Ribery, Robben, Torres, Van Persie, Cech, Lahm, Yaya, Tevez all within a year of him xx


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difeo
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#1883
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#1883
(Original post by FFTypoCorrector)
Ribery, Robben, Torres, Van Persie, Cech, Lahm, Yaya, Tevez all within a year of him xx

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I'd rate Van Der Vaart above Torres, RVP, Cech, Yaya and Tevez. That puts him behind only Ribery, Robben and Lahm, so top 5. Try again.
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Not srs. CC somewhat mad xx
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WalkingAbortion
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#1884
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#1884
now Neymar, Neymar I would be happy to see us sign, even for £140m, the guy will dominate the Ballon D'or in a couple of years time no matter where he plays.
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_Ddraig_
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#1885
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#1885
I'm pretty sure there are better things we could spend £140mil on, than go on a rabbit chase for Neymar.
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Pimped Butterfly
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#1886
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#1886
(Original post by mojojojo101)
They aren't entirely useless, they just need to be used with some subtlety, taking into account the particular circumstances being examined.

Thats equally true for 'attacking' statistics as well though.
Attacking statistics show much greater correlation with the great players; high shot numbers, conversion rates, dribble numbers, attacking third passes, key passes all correlate very well to the greatest attackers in world football. Obviously you can apply context to differentiate minor discrepancies, but the raw correlation is there and strong for a lot of attacking statistics.

Whereas the likes of Lovren outperformed Terry in almost all stats last season, despite Terry being unanimously seen as the top CB in the best defence of the title winners. Even if you apply context it's largely impossible to use defensive statistics effectively, and they definitely mean very little in direct player comparisons. They're more an indicator of playing style rather than playing quality.
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Pimped Butterfly
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#1887
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#1887
(Original post by AR_95)
You've used them before to argue that Sterling puts as much defensive contribution as Hazard does

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Nah it was Neymar, and pretty much in every discussion on defensive statistics I have to defend and explain the context I've used them in, and then give the disclaimer that it's stupid to use them for point blank authority.

But we've done this circle before and idk why you never learn your lesson
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Dirtybit
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#1888
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#1888
(Original post by _Morsey_)
I'm pretty sure there are better things we could spend £140mil on, than go on a rabbit chase for Neymar.
That's the amount of his release clause so it wouldn't be a rabbit chase as they'd have to accept it.

On the other hand Neymar would never want to move from Barcelona to Manchester United unless we turned into an elite force.
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Pimped Butterfly
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#1889
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#1889
(Original post by leinad2012)
Defensive stats used in isolation and in the wrong hands can be damaging, but when you start controlling for set piece positioning, role within team, style of play of team and look at the individual circumstances where the stats are coming from (i.e. looking at the individual tackles, interceptions etc, and the situations surrounding them) then they become relevant as supporting evidence.
It's impossible to do the bold to any degree of effectiveness, and you're not going to be able to do the italicised portion whilst browsing Squawka.
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Pimped Butterfly
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#1890
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#1890
(Original post by Dirtybit)
That's the amount of his release clause so it wouldn't be a rabbit chase as they'd have to accept it.

On the other hand Neymar would never want to move from Barcelona to Manchester United unless we turned into an elite force.
Spanish release clauses don't work the same way, there's rarely any legal basis to them - they're just nominal amounts (that's why they're set at ridiculous numbers usually, even though Neymar's isn't ridiculous). Dunno if Neymar's is an exception but I doubt it, if it's in the media.
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Zerforax
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#1891
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#1891
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35227015

Hainer said: "We sell more jerseys than expected, the foreign share is 60%. We are satisfied, even if the actual way of playing of United is not exactly what we want to see."

How long can Man Utd not be a winning force before the foreign fans all start to become Man City/Chelsea fans?

I imagine that Chinese deal that the Man City owners signed could mean that most Chinese fans will become blue in the next 5 years?
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fallen_acorns
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#1892
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#1892
(Original post by Zerforax)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35227015

Hainer said: "We sell more jerseys than expected, the foreign share is 60%. We are satisfied, even if the actual way of playing of United is not exactly what we want to see."

How long can Man Utd not be a winning force before the foreign fans all start to become Man City/Chelsea fans?

I imagine that Chinese deal that the Man City owners signed could mean that most Chinese fans will become blue in the next 5 years?
Its already happening - see it every day in the students I work with.

Fans respect united, liverpool and arsenal.. but support the team that is winning now.

Amazing how many chinese fans of the german national team there are now.. will all be 'x-winning country' in 4 years times, and will buy a hell of a lot of merch for what ever that team is.

Not just a united problem though - the whole prem is suffering in the east, due to our teams being seen as inferior to the Spanish giants/bayern.

Its still a growing market for football clubs, so I imagine there is no actual drop in sales, but rather a slow-down in growth, compared to what is happening for spanish clubs/bayern
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Zerforax
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#1893
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#1893
(Original post by Pimped Butterfly)
Spanish release clauses don't work the same way, there's rarely any legal basis to them - they're just nominal amounts (that's why they're set at ridiculous numbers usually, even though Neymar's isn't ridiculous). Dunno if Neymar's is an exception but I doubt it, if it's in the media.
I thought in Spain every footballer contract was required to have a release clause? That's why most are ridiculously high since the clubs don't want the release clauses to actually be triggered.

If Neymar's release clause is 140mil (which would be approx 190mil/200mil euros) then it basically is ridiculously high (Bale's transfer was the most expensive at £86mil/100mil euros).

Anyway while Barcelona wouldn't be able to do anything (other than take the money) if Man Utd made such an offer, it would be up to Neymar to decide if he wants to move or not. Can't be many players who would give up a starring role next to Messi/Suarez even if he was to get 300-500k a week.
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Zerforax
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#1894
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#1894
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
Its already happening - see it every day in the students I work with.

Fans respect united, liverpool and arsenal.. but support the team that is winning now.

Amazing how many chinese fans of the german national team there are now.. will all be 'x-winning country' in 4 years times, and will buy a hell of a lot of merch for what ever that team is.

Not just a united problem though - the whole prem is suffering in the east, due to our teams being seen as inferior to the Spanish giants/bayern.

Its still a growing market for football clubs, so I imagine there is no actual drop in sales, but rather a slow-down in growth, compared to what is happening for spanish clubs/bayern
Yea the support for Real Madrid/Barcelona/Bayern Munich must be huge these days.

True - we're probably looking for a Man City CL win before people really start to take notice of them.

You'd imagine a fall in popularity would hurt Man Utd the most though? Since that is where you generate the most cash. Man City just have their artificial deals with Etihad, Arsenal have never been that popular abroad and Chelsea have fingers in all pies these days too.
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fallen_acorns
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#1895
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#1895
(Original post by Zerforax)
Yea the support for Real Madrid/Barcelona/Bayern Munich must be huge these days.

True - we're probably looking for a Man City CL win before people really start to take notice of them.

You'd imagine a fall in popularity would hurt Man Utd the most though? Since that is where you generate the most cash. Man City just have their artificial deals with Etihad, Arsenal have never been that popular abroad and Chelsea have fingers in all pies these days too.
Your right, if things keep going on this trend, it will be united who feel it..

All those noodle sponsers may dry up!
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Zerforax
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#1896
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#1896
(Original post by fallen_acorns)
Your right, if things keep going on this trend, it will be united who feel it..

All those noodle sponsers may dry up!
Still hugely impressed with the commercial juggernaut that is Man Utd over the last couple of decades.

Well you imagine it would at least take a decade with most huge deals already tied up for a long time (Adidas till 2025, Chevrolet till 2019 etc).
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Nickini
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#1897
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#1897
(Original post by Zerforax)
I thought in Spain every footballer contract was required to have a release clause? That's why most are ridiculously high since the clubs don't want the release clauses to actually be triggered.

If Neymar's release clause is 140mil (which would be approx 190mil/200mil euros) then it basically is ridiculously high (Bale's transfer was the most expensive at £86mil/100mil euros).

Anyway while Barcelona wouldn't be able to do anything (other than take the money) if Man Utd made such an offer, it would be up to Neymar to decide if he wants to move or not. Can't be many players who would give up a starring role next to Messi/Suarez even if he was to get 300-500k a week.
They are, but it's a lot more complicated than just offering X amount and the club having to accept. To my knowledge the clause actually has to be paid by the player themselves (like when Herrera joined United IIRC) and the Spanish government take a heavy fee in tax. I think it's particularly problematic when a player is moving abroad from a Spanish club.

When Costa joined Chelsea e.g. his release clause was £32m but the clubs agreed on a fee of slightly less to prevent complications and Atletico losing out to the tax man.
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Pimped Butterfly
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#1898
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#1898
(Original post by Zerforax)
I thought in Spain every footballer contract was required to have a release clause? That's why most are ridiculously high since the clubs don't want the release clauses to actually be triggered.

If Neymar's release clause is 140mil (which would be approx 190mil/200mil euros) then it basically is ridiculously high (Bale's transfer was the most expensive at £86mil/100mil euros).

Anyway while Barcelona wouldn't be able to do anything (other than take the money) if Man Utd made such an offer, it would be up to Neymar to decide if he wants to move or not. Can't be many players who would give up a starring role next to Messi/Suarez even if he was to get 300-500k a week.
Every contract has a release clause but the application of them is different when it comes to foreign purchasing clubs, and they're rarely triggered in Spain between clubs anyway. The legality and procedures are pretty weird, and in reality they usually just exist as nominal, irrelevant amounts. As a result, Barca aren't obligated to sell to a foreign club if there is the usual Spanish-law-dictated 'release clause' in Neymar's contract. If there's a separate, more watertight clause then maybe, but like I mentioned before, it's a maybe. It's a bit too technical and vague for non-Spanish speakers like me to bother with full understanding but in essence, there is little chance of Barca being obligated to sell if United do meet some release clause figure.

If 27 year old Suarez was slightly underpriced at 65-75m then Neymar, who is just turning 24, is worth £140m. Neymar is comfortably a better deal at £140m than Bale was at £86m. Without a shadow of a doubt.

And by ridiculously high, I was referring to £100m clauses on the likes of Sanchez and Fabregas iirc, and £750m on Ronaldo.
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Zerforax
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#1899
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#1899
(Original post by Nickini)
They are, but it's a lot more complicated than just offering X amount and the club having to accept. To my knowledge the clause actually has to be paid by the player themselves (like when Herrera joined United IIRC) and the Spanish government take a heavy fee in tax. I think it's particularly problematic when a player is moving abroad from a Spanish club.

When Costa joined Chelsea e.g. his release clause was £32m but the clubs agreed on a fee of slightly less to prevent complications and Atletico losing out to the tax man.
(Original post by Pimped Butterfly)
Every contract has a release clause but the application of them is different when it comes to foreign purchasing clubs, and they're rarely triggered in Spain between clubs anyway. The legality and procedures are pretty weird, and in reality they usually just exist as nominal, irrelevant amounts. As a result, Barca aren't obligated to sell to a foreign club if there is the usual Spanish-law-dictated 'release clause' in Neymar's contract. If there's a separate, more watertight clause then maybe, but like I mentioned before, it's a maybe. It's a bit too technical and vague for non-Spanish speakers like me to bother with full understanding but in essence, there is little chance of Barca being obligated to sell if United do meet some release clause figure.

If 27 year old Suarez was slightly underpriced at 65-75m then Neymar, who is just turning 24, is worth £140m. Neymar is comfortably a better deal at £140m than Bale was at £86m. Without a shadow of a doubt.

And by ridiculously high, I was referring to £100m clauses on the likes of Sanchez and Fabregas iirc, and £750m on Ronaldo.
Ah that's interesting and didn't realise before. I had another quick read and it seems that in Spain players have "buy-out" clauses in their contracts rather than "release clauses" as we understand in England. So the player can buy-out his contract for his agreed sum. The point about tax that Nickini mentioned comes from the fact that most players will not have the huge sum to buy-out his contract so then the buying club would give him the money but then it attracts tax and makes it complicated. If Neymar buys out his contract for £140mil and then there's another 47% tax on top.. :eek:

Learn something new every day..
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Dirtybit
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#1900
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#1900
Zidane the new Madrid manager. That's Pogba and Hazard to real madrid in the summer done then.
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