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    Yep, the jig is up. Matt Drudge reported an advanced story in the Washington post today, that the pentagon has fessed up to unspeakable and horrific human rights abuses at Gitmo Bay.

    Yes, it's true. A guard pissed on a Koran, another guard kicked the holy book and another tore pages out of it. All this, along with shaving the sacred beards of the prisoners, and the abuses inflicted by a female guard.

    We need to rally behind these innocent prisoners, we need to give them free lawyer, we need to sue the pentagon.

    Do most civilized people on this forum agree???
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...301417_pf.html
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    (Original post by Douglas)
    Yep, the jig is up. Matt Drudge reported an advanced story in the Washington post today, that the pentagon has fessed up to unspeakable and horrific human rights abuses at Gitmo Bay.

    Yes, it's true. A guard pissed on a Koran, another guard kicked the holy book and another tore pages out of it. All this, along with shaving the sacred beards of the prisoners, and the abuses inflicted by a female guard.

    We need to rally behind these innocent prisoners, we need to give them free lawyer, we need to sue the pentagon.

    Do most civilized people on this forum agree???
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...301417_pf.html
    Wow, how could those evil soldiers subject those wonderful terrorists to such abuse?

    Honestly, I think the soldiers involved should be commended for showing so much restraint.
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    Wow, how could those evil soldiers subject those wonderful terrorists to such abuse?

    Honestly, I think the soldiers involved should be commended for showing so much restraint.
    restraint against what??
    and however "wonderful" the terrorists are, doesnt mean guards have the right to kick the Qur'an something offensive to all muslims.
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    Bloody Americans. Land of the free, my arse.

    That said, I burned a few Bibles in my day. Maybe I should show that to those soldiers...
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    (Original post by Made in the USA)
    Wow, how could those evil soldiers subject those wonderful terrorists to such abuse?

    Honestly, I think the soldiers involved should be commended for showing so much restraint.
    ROFL

    Really they shouldnt piss on their religous books. Us Brits tend to find that creates more terrorists.
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    (Original post by Douglas)
    Yep, the jig is up. Matt Drudge reported an advanced story in the Washington post today, that the pentagon has fessed up to unspeakable and horrific human rights abuses at Gitmo Bay.

    Yes, it's true. A guard pissed on a Koran, another guard kicked the holy book and another tore pages out of it. All this, along with shaving the sacred beards of the prisoners, and the abuses inflicted by a female guard.

    We need to rally behind these innocent prisoners, we need to give them free lawyer, we need to sue the pentagon.

    Do most civilized people on this forum agree???
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...301417_pf.html
    "Sardonic wit" aside, the problem with doing stuff like this is that it undermines "our" position in the moral high-ground.. which we do sort of need.
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    (Original post by Douglas)

    Do most civilized people on this forum agree???
    Yes, but will it happen.....no.
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    (Original post by Douglas)
    Yep, the jig is up. Matt Drudge reported an advanced story in the Washington post today, that the pentagon has fessed up to unspeakable and horrific human rights abuses at Gitmo Bay.
    I find it amusing (although not altogether surprising seeing as I know how foolish you can be) that you discuss something like this quite so lightheartedly. Leave aside for a moment the fact that the guards behaved totally unacceptably, think about what the consequences of this will be. How can we on the one hand claim to be in the right and take the moral high ground and then do things like this? It will cause backlash from Muslims as well as from those who fear (as I do) that Guantanamo Bay and the things that go on there are in breach of the very fundamental rules that Bush claims to be protecting.

    Yes, it's true. A guard pissed on a Koran, another guard kicked the holy book and another tore pages out of it. All this, along with shaving the sacred beards of the prisoners, and the abuses inflicted by a female guard.
    Do you believe that's acceptable behaviour? To desecrate something they believe to be important and holy?

    We need to rally behind these innocent prisoners, we need to give them free lawyer, we need to sue the pentagon.
    If they're being detained they should have a lawyer anyway, yes. That's how things work (or at least how they used to work).

    (Original post by Universal Declaration of Human Rights)
    Article 9.

    No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

    Article 10.

    Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

    Article 11.

    (1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
    Or do these fundamental human rights no longer count for anything?
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    (Original post by jiggaman7)
    doesnt mean guards have the right to kick the Qur'an something offensive to all muslims.
    Im sure it is offensive, but i defend their rght to do it. Theres a distiction between harming someones vital interests and offedning them which JS Mil wonderfully points out. Im offended by modern art and brown shoes but i dont think they should be made illegal. Surely you dont?
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    (Original post by Douglas)
    Do most civilized people on this forum agree???
    In all honesty I couldn't give two s**ts what the soldiers did to the Koran. If Muslims are so insecure in their religion that they are offended by something so trivial then thats too bad. Pissing on or kicking a copy of the Koran harms no-one, intentionally murdering innocent civilians is slightly more significant. Some of the prisoners may well be innocent but a loss of dignity barely compares to the crimes they may have committed.

    Saying all that, I don't like it when I see the Union Jack being burned on the street. However, I don't really see it as an attack on my nation/culture and it doesn't offend me as such (although it does anger me).
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    (Original post by John82)
    In all honesty I couldn't give two s**ts what the soldiers did to the Koran. If Muslims are so insecure in their religion that they are offended by something so trivial then thats too bad. Pissing on or kicking a copy of the Koran harms no-one, intentionally murdering innocent civilians is slightly more significant.
    I don't think it's a question of insecurity at all. Recently ebay were flooded with letters from Catholics asking that the Eucharist should not be sold on their site. It's more to do with what is perceived as important enough to care strongly about.

    (Original post by John82)
    Some of the prisoners may well be innocent but a loss of dignity barely compares to the crimes they may have committed.
    Yeah, they "may well be innocent" and yet many have been detained illegally without trial and without even knowing the charge against them. NOTHING justifies that. Nothing. The unneccessary desecration of the Qu'ran exacerbates the situation further still. You say you would be "angry" if someone burned the Union Jack in front of you. Well imagine you'd been held for three years, largely in solitary confinement, and you didn't even know for what reason you were being held. Then imagine someone angered you by burning your flag. I imagine you'd be slightly more upset. And then realise that the comparison between the British flag and what these Muslims believe to be a sacred text is actually flawed and that they are likely to feel even more strongly than you would.
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    Some people seem to have taken the 'moral high-ground' argument and run with it. When I speak of moral high ground I draw a distinction between those who chop off heads, blow innocent men and women up in a fight against democracy, hang and burn people from bridges, use women and children as shields and do not abide by any accepted manner in which to wage war, and those who aim to abide by the Geneva Convention despite the opposition rejecting it, bring isolated abuses of human rights to account and risk their lives to instill freedom and democracy.

    I dont want to see a situation made worse for our troops by mishandling a religious text or being unnecessarily disrespectful, but im under no illusions who the real enemy are in this conflict, what they are capable and what they think of human rights.
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    (Original post by englishstudent)
    I find it amusing (although not altogether surprising seeing as I know how foolish you can be)
    Begin with an insult. Nice.

    that you discuss something like this quite so lightheartedly. Leave aside for a moment the fact that the guards behaved totally unacceptably, think about what the consequences of this will be.
    I agree, it doesnt help our situation.

    How can we on the one hand claim to be in the right and take the moral high ground and then do things like this? It will cause backlash from Muslims as well as from those who fear (as I do) that Guantanamo Bay and the things that go on there are in breach of the very fundamental rules that Bush claims to be protecting.
    Holding oneself to ones own standards is indeed very honourable, but it says alot about the barbarity of the opponent. A barbarity that believes it holds the moral high ground and has no interest in the finer points of Western morality and legality.

    Do you believe that's acceptable behaviour? To desecrate something they believe to be important and holy?
    I think the point Douglas is making is that we, or rather the media, have so lost sight of the bigger picture in a desperate self-deprecating attempt to maintain the moral high ground.

    Do you think its acceptable behaviour to feed children into plastic shredders?

    If they're being detained they should have a lawyer anyway, yes. That's how things work (or at least how they used to work).
    Under which legal system? The one we abide by or the one they reject as blasphemous? You offer the likes of Zarqawi and other insurgents offence by even holding them to the same moral standards!

    Or do these fundamental human rights no longer count for anything?
    Well, theyre not legally binding, no.

    This is,

    GCIV - Art. 5 "Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State."

    That is to say, the detainee cannot be detained arbitrarily and cannot be denied the right to a regular tribunal. US State policy at Guantanamo does not contravene this principle.
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    (Original post by douglas)
    We need to rally behind these innocent prisoners, we need to give them free lawyer, we need to sue the pentagon.
    iinocent prisoners, do you realise how contradictory that sounds? yes i realise some of the prisoners maybe being held unjustly but do you reallt believe they are all innocent? Everyone is so quick to jump to the defence of those being portrayed in the media as isolated and defenceless in places such a G bay, what abour american reporters who have head their head sliced, effectively sawed off whilst still alive, or is that not an infrigement on their human rights. I respect that the guards actions were out of order, but i thinking gerneralising all prisoners as 'innocent' and making the coalition to look like the bad guys in all this is stupid. Yes, sue the pentagon. how naive.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Some people seem to have taken the 'moral high-ground' argument and run with it. When I speak of moral high ground I draw a distinction between those who chop off heads, blow innocent men and women up in a fight against democracy, hang and burn people from bridges, use women and children as shields and do not abide by any accepted manner in which to wage war, and those who aim to abide by the Geneva Convention despite the opposition rejecting it, bring isolated abuses of human rights to account and risk their lives to instill freedom and democracy.

    I dont want to see a situation made worse for our troops by mishandling a religious text or being unnecessarily disrespectful, but im under no illusions who the real enemy are in this conflict, what they are capable and what they think of human rights.
    The behaviour of some of these people isn't in question. We are fully aware that many of them are brutal people. However the point about the moral high ground is that we need to maintain it by not reducing our behaviour to their level IN ANY WAY AT ALL.

    What they think of human rights isn't the issue. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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    (Original post by jacko!)
    iinocent prisoners, do you realise how contradictory that sounds? yes i realise some of the prisoners maybe being held unjustly but do you reallt believe they are all innocent? Everyone is so quick to jump to the defence of those being portrayed in the media as isolated and defenceless in places such a G bay, what abour american reporters who have head their head sliced, effectively sawed off whilst still alive, or is that not an infrigement on their human rights. I respect that the guards actions were out of order, but i thinking gerneralising all prisoners as 'innocent' and making the coalition to look like the bad guys in all this is stupid. Yes, sue the pentagon. how naive.
    He was being sarcastic.
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    Im sure it is offensive, but i defend their rght to do it. Theres a distiction between harming someones vital interests and offedning them which JS Mil wonderfully points out. Im offended by modern art and brown shoes but i dont think they should be made illegal. Surely you dont?
    what think tht kicking the Qur'am should be made illegal?
    pissing on it is not ONLY offensive to the prisoner but to all muslims....by all means when a prisoner does something wrong he can punish him, but kicking the Qur'an is not an insult to only him but to all muslims.

    would a black person accept it if a guard was found to be cursing a black prisoner with various racial insults??
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    (Original post by Tonight Matthew)
    However the point about the moral high ground is that we need to maintain it by not reducing our behaviour to their level IN ANY WAY AT ALL.
    That would be a perfect world yes. Ours alone, since our enemy doesnt recognise the same moral high ground.

    i) can you equate mistreatment of a religious book by an isolated minority, who act in contradiction of US state policy with severing heads and bodies of men and women who support democracy?

    ii) in maintaining the moral high ground do you find the media coverage of each to be balanced and met with a moral perspective?

    What they think of human rights isn't the issue. Two wrongs don't make a right.
    Of course we should aim to hold ourselves to our own standards, but in doing so also hold ourselves account in contrast with the enemy we face. As Douglas points out, this isnt what the Western media or its political institutions are doing, to OUR DETRIMENT ONLY.
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    (Original post by Tonight Matthew)
    He was being sarcastic.
    oh :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Douglas)
    Yep, the jig is up. Matt Drudge reported an advanced story in the Washington post today, that the pentagon has fessed up to unspeakable and horrific human rights abuses at Gitmo Bay.

    Yes, it's true. A guard pissed on a Koran, another guard kicked the holy book and another tore pages out of it. All this, along with shaving the sacred beards of the prisoners, and the abuses inflicted by a female guard.

    We need to rally behind these innocent prisoners, we need to give them free lawyer, we need to sue the pentagon.

    Do most civilized people on this forum agree???
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...301417_pf.html
    I agree that desecrating the American flag is hardly any better than desecrating the Quran. However, I think that your flippant attitude wishfully underestimates the effects of such happenings. We have to live with our Muslim co-earthlings, after all.
 
 
 
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