My fellow Earthlings: The jig is up Watch

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Iz the Wiz
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#241
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#241
(Original post by Vienna)
The Independent did and has been doing so for months.
Wait a minute---now that I read the article, I find this elaboration:

"water was poured on his head and Aguilera music was played to keep him awake in midnight sessions."

In other words, the Christina Aguilera music was just a means of imposing sleep deprivation ... which, as posted above, the U.S. State Department has classified as torture. The headline & first paragraph of the article sound frivolous, but there's a bit more to this than bad pop music.
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Vienna
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#242
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(Original post by Iz the Wiz)
Wait a minute---now that I read the article, I find this elaboration:

"water was poured on his head and Aguilera music was played to keep him awake in midnight sessions."

In other words, the Christina Aguilera music was just a means of imposing sleep deprivation ... which, as posted above, the U.S. State Department has classified as torture. The headline & first paragraph of the article sound frivolous, but there's a bit more to this than bad pop music.
He was refusing liquids, the US Army operates a policy of "drink it or wear it" to coerce detainees to maintain their health.
Yes, interrogation involves tiring a prisoner by waking them at irregular intervals.
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Iz the Wiz
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#243
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#243
(Original post by Vienna)
He was refusing liquids, the US Army operates a policy of "drink it or wear it" to coerce detainees to maintain their health.
Yes, interrogation involves tiring a prisoner by waking them at irregular intervals.
Uhh, did you miss my post on Huxley/the USSR/sleep deprivation, etc. (#232)? Or the statement, first cited by Ayaan, that the U.S. State Department has classified systematic sleep deprivation as torture?
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Vienna
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#244
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(Original post by Iz the Wiz)
Uhh, did you miss my post on Huxley/the USSR/sleep deprivation, etc. (#232)? Or the statement, first cited by Ayaan, that the U.S. State Department has classified systematic sleep deprivation as torture?
No. The US army cannot be compared in anyway with Soviet Gulags or any such horrors that unlawful combatants, not to mention REAL innocent men have met with in the last decade. To make such a comparison is not only foolish but highly offensive.

And something else I dont understand. We hear constantly that these insurgents arent muslims, that they disgrace the name of Islam, yet on what basis is their holy book to be respected. It doesnt add up.
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Iz the Wiz
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#245
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(Original post by Vienna)
No. The US army cannot be compared in anyway with Soviet Gulags or any such horrors that unlawful combatants, not to mention REAL innocent men have met with in the last decade. To make such a comparison is not only foolish but highly offensive.

And something else I dont understand. We hear constantly that these insurgents arent muslims, that they disgrace the name of Islam, yet on what basis is their holy book to be respected. It doesnt add up.
1) Your response to the fact that we share key techniques with Russian Communist prisons, and that our own state department has classified these techniques as torture, is to be offended by Amnesty's rhetorical comparison! And you still haven't addressed the substance of the charges at all.

2) As for me, I don't "hear constantly" that the insurgents aren't Moslem. And I have never heard that Afghan detainees in Guatanimo aren't Moslem. Maybe it's been said that terrorists "disgrace the name of Islam," but they still consider themselves Islamic. In any event, the Quran is to be respected on the basis of simple decency. Decent societies don't desecrate other societies' sacred objects.
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Vienna
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#246
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#246
(Original post by Iz the Wiz)
1) Your response to the fact that we share key techniques with Russian Communist prisons, and that our own state department has classified these techniques as torture, is to be offended by Amnesty's rhetorical comparison! And you still haven't addressed the substance of the charges at all.
Youve equated Soviet prisons with Guantanamo, not me.Millions of people dying in the former, none in the later. I find that pretty offensive. Ive addressed the substance of the charges repeatedly.

2) As for me, I don't "hear constantly" that the insurgents aren't Moslem. And I have never heard that Afghan detainees in Guatanimo aren't Moslem. Maybe it's been said that terrorists "disgrace the name of Islam," but they still consider themselves Islamic. In any event, the Quran is to be respected on the basis of simple decency. Decent societies don't desecrate other societies' sacred objects.
Our society doesnt as a rule.

Are you saying those who drove planes into 9/11 and wish death upon democratic societies, are considered to be Muslims?
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Iz the Wiz
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#247
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(Original post by Vienna)
Youve equated Soviet prisons with Guantanamo, not me.Millions of people dying in the former, none in the later. I find that pretty offensive. Ive addressed the substance of the charges repeatedly.
I've "equated Soviet prisons with Guatanamo"? What I've done is posted factual accounts of both; any "equating" is already there and wasn't added in by me. I find it offensive too, but I don't deal with it by shooting the messenger.

You have NOT addressed the fact that a particular practice, widespread in Guatanamo, was (1) used in Communist Russia to "break" political prisoners, and (2) classified as "torture" by the state department.



(Original post by Vienna)
Are you saying those who drove planes into 9/11 and wish death upon democratic societies, are considered to be Muslims?
Yes, of course they were Muslims. What's your point?
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Vienna
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#248
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#248
(Original post by Iz the Wiz)
You have NOT addressed the fact that a particular practice, widespread in Guatanamo, was (1) used in Communist Russia to "break" political prisoners, and (2) classified as "torture" by the state department.
Which practice is that? Using Christina Aguilera to wake a prisoner for a session of interrogation?

Yes, of course they were Muslims. What's your point?
The MCB doesnt believe an Islamic terrorist exists and wants it to be prohibited under this religious hatred ban. We clearly have a problem.
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Iz the Wiz
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#249
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#249
(Original post by Vienna)
Which practice is that?
This practice (in case you missed it):

Aldous Huxley 1958 (posted 5 days ago): "Ivan Pavlov observed that, when subjected to prolonged physical or psychic stress, laboratory animals exhibit all the symptoms of a nervous breakdown ...
"For the dictator and his policemen, Pavlov's findings have important practical implications. If the central nervous system in dogs can be broken down, so can the central nervous system in political prisoners ...
"We possess detailed descriptions of the methods used by the Communist police for dealing with political prisoners. From the moment he is taken into custody, the victim is subjected systematically to many kinds of physical and psychological stress ... he is made extremely uncomfortable, he is not allowed to sleep for more than a few hours each night. And all the time he is kept in a state of suspense, uncertainty, and acute apprehension ... he is questioned, often for many hours at a stretch, by interrogators who do their best to frighten, confuse, and bewilder him. After a few weeks or months of such treatment, his brain goes on strike and he confesses whatever it is that his captors want him to confess."

From the Amnesty report:

"The techniques alleged include prolonged standing or kneeling, hooding, blindfolding with spray-painted goggles, being kept in painful or awkward positions, sleep deprivation, and 24-hour lighting."

From the Washington Post: "Those who refuse to cooperate inside this secret CIA interrogation center are sometimes kept standing or kneeling for hours, in black hoods or spray-painted goggles, according to intelligence specialists familiar with CIA interrogation methods. At times they are held in awkward, painful positions and deprived of sleep with a 24-hour bombardment of lights -- subject to what are known as 'stress and duress' techniques.

"The [U.S.] State Department's annual human rights report routinely denounces sleep deprivation as an interrogation method. In its 2001 report on Turkey, Israel and Jordan, all U.S. allies, the department listed sleep deprivation among often-used alleged torture techniques."


The MCB doesnt believe an Islamic terrorist exists and wants it to be prohibited under this religious hatred ban. We clearly have a problem.
The MCB can say what it wants---there are probably all kinds of good reasons to publicly exclude terrorists from the Islamic faith. But it's well known that they are radical fundamentalist Moslems: they certainly consider themselves Moslems. From bin Laden on down, they attempt to appeal to the Islamic world by condemning Middle Eastern regimes as "corrupt," "secular," and "not truly Islamic."

It's a moot point anyway. Even if the terrorists weren't Islamic, desecrating the Quran is (of course) offensive to all of Islam. This is elementary & obvious.
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Douglas
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#250
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#250
(Original post by Iz the Wiz)
You have NOT addressed the fact that a particular practice, widespread in Guatanamo, was (1) used in Communist Russia to "break" political prisoners, and (2) classified as "torture" by the state department.
So the USSR used sleep depravation as one of their methods of torture. What's your point.
Iz the Wiz
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#251
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(Original post by Douglas)
So the USSR used sleep depravation as one of their methods of torture. What's your point.
That's it's quite obviously torture, everyone has condemned it as torture, but you're denying that it's torture when it happens in U.S. prisons during the "war on terror."
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Vienna
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#252
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#252
(Original post by Iz the Wiz)
This practice (in case you missed it):

Aldous Huxley 1958 (posted 5 days ago): "Ivan Pavlov observed that, when subjected to prolonged physical or psychic stress, laboratory animals exhibit all the symptoms of a nervous breakdown ...
"For the dictator and his policemen, Pavlov's findings have important practical implications. If the central nervous system in dogs can be broken down, so can the central nervous system in political prisoners ...
"We possess detailed descriptions of the methods used by the Communist police for dealing with political prisoners. From the moment he is taken into custody, the victim is subjected systematically to many kinds of physical and psychological stress ... he is made extremely uncomfortable, he is not allowed to sleep for more than a few hours each night. And all the time he is kept in a state of suspense, uncertainty, and acute apprehension ... he is questioned, often for many hours at a stretch, by interrogators who do their best to frighten, confuse, and bewilder him. After a few weeks or months of such treatment, his brain goes on strike and he confesses whatever it is that his captors want him to confess."

From the Amnesty report:

"The techniques alleged include prolonged standing or kneeling, hooding, blindfolding with spray-painted goggles, being kept in painful or awkward positions, sleep deprivation, and 24-hour lighting."
An Amnesty report based on which evidence?

From the Washington Post: "Those who refuse to cooperate inside this secret CIA interrogation center are sometimes kept standing or kneeling for hours, in black hoods or spray-painted goggles, according to intelligence specialists familiar with CIA interrogation methods. At times they are held in awkward, painful positions and deprived of sleep with a 24-hour bombardment of lights -- subject to what are known as 'stress and duress' techniques.
Stress and duress is very controversial, and I dont disagree that it certain places it breaches US federal law for the treatment of prisoners. Waking prisoners for interrogation sessions is not I would consider torture, especially when these are unlawful combatants held during a time of war under the third Geneva Convention.

"The [U.S.] State Department's annual human rights report routinely denounces sleep deprivation as an interrogation method. In its 2001 report on Turkey, Israel and Jordan, all U.S. allies, the department listed sleep deprivation among often-used alleged torture techniques."
"alleged" torture techniques. Sleep deprivation is indeed very harsh.

The MCB can say what it wants---there are probably all kinds of good reasons to publicly exclude terrorists from the Islamic faith. But it's well known that they are radical fundamentalist Moslems: they certainly consider themselves Moslems. From bin Laden on down, they attempt to appeal to the Islamic world by condemning Middle Eastern regimes as "corrupt," "secular," and "not truly Islamic."
ok.

It's a moot point anyway. Even if the terrorists weren't Islamic, desecrating the Quran is (of course) offensive to all of Islam. This is elementary & obvious.
I was thinking more of burying terrorists in pig skin as a practical detterent.
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Iz the Wiz
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#253
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(Original post by Vienna)
An Amnesty report based on which evidence?
The report cites "former intelligence officials and 10 current US national security officials including several people who witnessed the handling of prisoners," and adds that "US military officials in Afghanistan have since been quoted confirming the use of these techniques, and former prisoners have also alleged their use." The Amnesty report summarizes previous reports in the NY Times and Washington Post which quoted unnamed military officials.


Stress and duress is very controversial, and I dont disagree that it certain places it breaches US federal law for the treatment of prisoners. Waking prisoners for interrogation sessions is not I would consider torture, especially when these are unlawful combatants held during a time of war under the third Geneva Convention.
"Waking prisoners for interrogation sessions" sounds very innocent, but waking prisoners at midnight is deliberate Stress and Duress, calculated to disorient, fatigue, and bewilder them. When combined with other findings such as 24-hour lighting, blinding with hoods or painted goggles, etc., it comprises a technique which, if prolonged for an extended time (a few weeks to six months, according to Huxley), destroys a person psychologically.

"alleged" torture techniques. Sleep deprivation is indeed very harsh.
OK, here's a less ambiguous quote (there are a lot of them; this one is from a State Department report on Iran):

"The [Iranian] Constitution forbids the use of torture; however, there were numerous credible reports that security forces and prison personnel continued to torture detainees and prisoners. Common methods included suspension for long periods in contorted positions, burning with cigarettes, sleep deprivation, and most frequently, severe and repeated beatings with cables or other instruments on the back and on the soles of the feet."---U.S. State Department, 2002 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices (Iran) (emphasis added)

I was thinking more of burying terrorists in pig skin as a practical detterent.
Sure. Hang 'em high. But first, let's very publicly and fairly determine exactly who is a terrorist---this is the American way of doing things.
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Vienna
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#254
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(Original post by Iz the Wiz)
The report cites "former intelligence officials and 10 current US national security officials including several people who witnessed the handling of prisoners," and adds that "US military officials in Afghanistan have since been quoted confirming the use of these techniques, and former prisoners have also alleged their use." The Amnesty report summarizes previous reports in the NY Times and Washington Post which quoted unnamed military officials.
ok.

"Waking prisoners for interrogation sessions" sounds very innocent, but waking prisoners at midnight is deliberate Stress and Duress, calculated to disorient, fatigue, and bewilder them.
Good. Is that sleep deprivation?

When combined with other findings such as 24-hour lighting, blinding with hoods or painted goggles, etc., it comprises a technique which, if prolonged for an extended time (a few weeks to six months, according to Huxley), destroys a person psychologically.
Good.

OK, here's a less ambiguous quote (there are a lot of them; this one is from a State Department report on Iran):

"The [Iranian] Constitution forbids the use of torture; however, there were numerous credible reports that security forces and prison personnel continued to torture detainees and prisoners. Common methods included suspension for long periods in contorted positions, burning with cigarettes, sleep deprivation, and most frequently, severe and repeated beatings with cables or other instruments on the back and on the soles of the feet."---U.S. State Department, 2002 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices (Iran) (emphasis added)
burning with cigarettes, severe and repeated beatings?
I think Id have to accept waking people up at uncivilised hours as sleep deprivation before I agreed that the US classified this as torture. My mother would be horrified to hear that she regularly tortured me as a child in her efforts to get me out of bed for school.

Sure. Hang 'em high. But first, let's very publicly and fairly determine exactly who is a terrorist---this is the American way of doing things.
Of course.
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Iz the Wiz
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#255
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Spoken like a lady. I hate to keep arguing, but feel the need to make few points:

2) I assume your mother didn't wake you for school at midnight, or make you wear spray-painted goggles while the sun was up.

3) If we are to "very publicly and fairly determine who is a terrorist," then the conditions at Guatanamo and our other prisons need to be changed. Because right now we're secretly locking people away with no hearing, on the unproven assumption that they're terrorists.
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Vienna
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#256
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#256
(Original post by Iz the Wiz)
Spoken like a lady. I hate to keep arguing, but feel the need to make few points:

2) I assume your mother didn't wake you for school at midnight
No, but half of Paris is awake at midnight so I dont really see much difference.

3) If we are to "very publicly and fairly determine who is a terrorist," then the conditions at Guatanamo and our other prisons need to be changed. Because right now we're secretly locking people away on the unproven assumption that they're terrorists.
They arent being dragged from their homes. They are there because they were picked up on or there was evidence that they had been on the battlefield, in a war, fighting other military units. They dont qualify for POW status, they do have rights under the 4th geneva convention that allows them a hearing before a tribunal and the right to live. Beyond that the US is allowed to detain them under that convention if it believes they are a risk. Which is why some a being put before tribunals and others are released if the US beleives they no longer consitute a risk.
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Iz the Wiz
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#257
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You really grew up in Paris? Wow, you write English beautifully. What's you're name? Avez-vous un allumette? Merci.
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Vienna
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#258
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http://goldfalcon.org/index.php/2005...-its-just-you/

(from the transcript of the Nuremburg Trials) - “A prisoner captured while trying to escape was delivered in his cell to the fury of police dogs who tore him to pieces.”

"See, we treated the prisoner like a dog, compared him to a dog, trained him like a dog, in the past we have even scared prisoners with dogs. The Nazi’s fed their prisoners to the dogs. Big difference there just ask our prisoner and then ask theirs. Oh, wait, you can’t. Dogs ate their guy."

“M. Herrera was present at tortures inflicted on numerous persons, and saw a Pole, by the name of Riptz, have the soles of his feet burned. Then his head was split open with a spanner. After the wound had healed he was shot”

“Commander Grandier, who had had a leg fractured in the war of 1914, was threatened by those who conducted the interrogations with having his other leg broken and this was actually done. When he had half revived, as a result of a hypodermic injection, the Germans did away with him”


I was easily able to distinguish the two, Senator; not only due to the vast difference in the techniques and methods mentioned, the amount of pain inflicted, or the purpose of the two. You see, Senator, I was able to tell the difference because the Nazi’s inflicted this torture on their own citizens. This was done to innocent civilians or dissenting politicians like yourself. They were arrested at home, on the street, at restaurants. Ours were taken prisoner on the battlefield. You do a disservice not only to our brave soldiers currently engaged in the act of keeping you safe, but you also do a more grevious disservice to the memory of those brave souls who resisted truly repressive regimes and dictators who used torture as a device of control.

Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn in “The Gulag Archipelago”

If the intellectuals in the plays of Chekhov who spent all their time guessing what would happen in twenty, thirty, or forty years had been told that in forty years interrogation by torture would be practiced in Russia; that prisoners would have their skulls squeezed within iron rings, that a human being would be lowered into an acid bath; that they would be trussed up naked to be bitten by ants and bedbugs; that a ramrod heated over a primus stove would be thrust up their anal canal (the “secret brand”); that a man’s genitals would be slowly crushed beneath the toe of a jackboot; and that, in the luckiest possible circumstances, prisoners would be tortured by being kept from sleeping for a week, by thirst, and by being beaten to a bloody pulp, not one of Chekhov’s plays would have gotten to its end because all the heroes would have gone off to insane asylums.


I have a hard time equating crushed skulls, acid baths, and seared anal cavities with lowered air conditioning. Perhaps Senator Durbin can explain in what universe “loud rap music” could be mistaken for or compared to “being beaten to a bloody pulp”. Don’t forget, I am not engaging in mere rhetoric here. Senator Durbin asserts that one could easily mistake written descriptions of torture in a gulag for the written description of interrogation at Guantanamo Bay. I wonder what Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn would say to that.


Anyone still claiming, like senior Democrat **** Durbin, that Gitmo is as bad as Nazi interrogation, the Soviet Gulags or Pol Pot brutality?
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Vienna
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#259
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I would echo Dave Kopel's analysis. http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2...tml#1119201773


Senator Richard Durbin has been justly mocked for his statement about what an FBI agent reported seeing at Guantanamo:

"If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime — Pol Pot or others — that had no concern for human beings."

The more plausible analogy to Guantanamo is British interrogation of Irish Republican Army suspects in the early 1970s. Then, the British extracted confessions through "the five techniques": wall-standing, hooding, continuous noise, deprivation of food, and deprivation of sleep. The European Court of Human Rights, in the 1978 case Republic of Ireland v. United Kingdom, ruled that the techniques did not constitute "torture," but were "inhuman and degrading," in violation of Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

The European convention obviously does not apply to the American interrogation of Arab or Afghan terrorist suspects at a military base in Cuba, but there are still plausible objections that can be raised against coercive interrogations, even when the persons being interrogated are terrorists. Serious discussion about Guanatamo would be enhanced by looking to appropriate historical analogies (such as the U.K.'s self-defense in the 1970s against the I.R.A.), rather than to absurd analogies, such as those drawn by Senator Durbin, which trivialize the Holocaust, the Soviet genocide, and the Pol Pot genocide.
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Jamie
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#260
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#260
(Original post by Vienna)
And something else I dont understand. We hear constantly that these insurgents arent muslims, that they disgrace the name of Islam, yet on what basis is their holy book to be respected. It doesnt add up.
Its not about the actual physical book that belongs to some nut extremist that gunned down civilians. Its about what each and every Koran represents and means to the religion. Defiling ANY Koran is defiling Islam in their eyes, no matter whom that Koran belongs to.

Its a bit Idolic to be honest, worshiping a book...blasphemous...
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