My fellow Earthlings: The jig is up Watch

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Jamie
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#21
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#21
You can judge people by how they treat those most vulnerable, and those under their protection/care.

How can we not judge those americans who are abusing prisoners in cuba harshly?
jacko!
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#22
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#22
can we not judge those muslims who killed thousands in America on 9/11?
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objectivism
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#23
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#23
(Original post by jiggaman7)
what think tht kicking the Qur'am should be made illegal?
pissing on it is not ONLY offensive to the prisoner but to all muslims....by all means when a prisoner does something wrong he can punish him, but kicking the Qur'an is not an insult to only him but to all muslims.

would a black person accept it if a guard was found to be cursing a black prisoner with various racial insults??
Urinating on the Koran is uncivilised in my opinion. But i dont think I have a right to enforce my opinion on another (no one shoud), if its their property they can do with it as they wish as long as it does not harm another (harming is wrong, offending is not). In fact it is through conflict that our society progresses, when we are in conflict we discover our true natures according to Mill.

If a guard was making racial insults, than he should be socially ostracised, but not legally punished. I believe in freedom of speech fully.

Just because urinatiing on the Koran is offensive to all Muslims is not a justification. What does it matter if one person is offended or a billion? An action is either right or wrong, quantative factors play no part.
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Tonight Matthew
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#24
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(Original post by Vienna)
That would be a perfect world yes. Ours alone, since our enemy doesnt recognise the same moral high ground.

i) can you equate mistreatment of a religious book by an isolated minority, who act in contradiction of US state policy with severing heads and bodies of men and women who support democracy?
Of course not! Where on earth have I said one could?! Don't put words into my mouth please. I specifically pointed out that these beheaders etc are evil.

(Original post by Vienna)
ii) in maintaining the moral high ground do you find the media coverage of each to be balanced and met with a moral perspective?
I appreciate your point, but you're making it sound like the media are apologists for fundamentalists. They are not. What we perceive to be heavy handed criticism of "the West" when things like this happen are indicative of the high standards we rightly expect "our" guys, the "good guys", to hold.
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Tonight Matthew
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(Original post by jacko!)
can we not judge those muslims who killed thousands in America on 9/11?
Christ! No one is trying to say that the guard who kicked a Koran is as bad as these terrorists! Not even the media. Please try and stick to the actual argument at hand, or just don't bother at all, seriously.
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Vienna
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(Original post by Tonight Matthew)
Of course not! Where on earth have I said one could?! Don't put words into my mouth please. I specifically pointed out that these beheaders etc are evil.
I asked you are question. I didnt put words anywhere. Can you draw the same distinction I made?

I appreciate your point, but you're making it sound like the media are apologists for fundamentalists. They are not. What we perceive to be heavy handed criticism of "the West" when things like this happen are indicative of the high standards we rightly expect "our" guys, the "good guys", to hold.
Should the criticism of the west for these incidents be put in perspective with the moral treatment by the enemy we face?
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Vienna
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#27
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(Original post by Tonight Matthew)
Christ! No one is trying to say that the guard who kicked a Koran is as bad as these terrorists!
I suggest you dont know the British anti-war movement very well.
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Tonight Matthew
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#28
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(Original post by Vienna)
I asked you are question. I didnt put words anywhere. Can you draw the same distinction I made?
The very fact that you even asked me such a ridiculous question is suggesting that I would even entertain such an argument, thus effectively putting words into my mouth.

(Original post by Vienna)
Should the criticism of the west for these incidents be put in perspective with the moral treatment by the enemy we face?
How do you mean? As far as I'm concerned, the evil nature of the fundamentalists does not need to be addressed any further. It is starkly obvious and apparent. What would you suggest, writing ".. but don't forget, these people's friends have beheaded people" on the end of every article remotely critical of Western behaviour? I'm personally totally aware of this, and so don't need reminding of it.
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Tonight Matthew
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#29
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(Original post by Vienna)
I suggest you dont know the British anti-war movement very well.
When I mean "no one", I mean in this thread.

Btw, I am by no means a part of the British anti-war movement. From my experience, they're fanatical w*nkers.
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jacko!
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#30
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(Original post by tomight matthew)
Christ! No one is trying to say that the guard who kicked a Koran is as bad as these terrorists! Not even the media. Please try and stick to the actual argument at hand, or just don't bother at all, seriously.
I am, completely sticking to the argument at hand, all im saying is that yes these prisoners rights may be being infringed by guards but everyone seems to be so wrapped up in being PC about their judgements about this that you forget where it all stemmed from. Prisoners would not be being currently detained if their faith and the organisations some of these people belonged to had not led them to commiting terrorist acts which took away the ultimate human right, the right to life, of thousands of Americans.
You may call this a simple argument, and i would agree, but you cannot say it is not a true one.

These prisoners are being detained to stop similar atrocities from happening again. There are always going to be mistreatments of prisoners, but it is nothing compared to kidnapp and brutal murder that these prisoners comrades commit.

If people can learn to deal with losing family and friends due to these terrorists actions, they can learn to deal with the qu'ran being kicked once or twice.
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Vienna
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#31
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(Original post by Tonight Matthew)
The very fact that you even asked me such a ridiculous question is suggesting that I would even entertain such an argument, thus effectively putting words into my mouth.
You still havent answered it, so any assumptions are likely to be growing.

How do you mean? As far as I'm concerned, the evil nature of the fundamentalists does not need to be addressed any further. It is starkly obvious and apparent. What would you suggest, writing ".. but don't forget, these people's friends have beheaded people" on the end of every article remotely critical of Western behaviour? I'm personally totally aware of this, and so don't need reminding of it.
Unfortunately, I havent seen much argument of that nature, neither from the media or the British public.
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sherunsaway
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#32
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#32
One word people. Tolerance.
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Tonight Matthew
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#33
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(Original post by jacko!)
I am, completely sticking to the argument at hand, all im saying is that yes these prisoners rights may be being infringed by guards but everyone seems to be so wrapped up in being PC about their judgements about this that you forget where it all stemmed from. Prisoners would not be being currently detained if their faith and the organisations some of these people belonged to had not led them to commiting terrorist acts which took away the ultimate human right, the right to life, of thousands of Americans.
You may call this a simple argument, and i would agree, but you cannot say it is not a true one.

These prisoners are being detained to stop similar atrocities from happening again. There are always going to be mistreatments of prisoners, but it is nothing compared to kidnapp and brutal murder that these prisoners comrades commit.

If people can learn to deal with losing family and friends due to these terrorists actions, they can learn to deal with the qu'ran being kicked once or twice.
Sorry, but your entire argument is based on the assumptions that:

a) two wrongs make a right.
b) 9/11 was the start of this entire situation.
c) the people in Gitmo actually being the people responsible for 9/11.
d) kicking a Koran being some sort of worthy operation in "the war against terror".

.. all of the above are very debateable assumptions.
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Tonight Matthew
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#34
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(Original post by Vienna)
You still havent answered it, so any assumptions are likely to be growing.
Do I really need to answer as to whether I think beheadings etc are akin to kicking a Koran? I'm genuinely quite offended that you even ask me. Of course I don't think they're on anywhere near the same level. What a stupid question.

(Original post by Vienna)
Unfortunately, I havent seen much argument of that nature, neither from the media or the British public.
Well, that's the argument you'll get from me. I can't be held responsible for the media or the British public.
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jacko!
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#35
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(Original post by tonight matthew)
Sorry, but your entire argument is based on the assumptions that:

a) two wrongs make a right.
b) 9/11 was the start of this entire situation.
c) the people in Gitmo actually being the people responsible for 9/11.
(Original post by jacko!)
Prisoners would not be being currently detained if their faith and the organisations some of these people belonged to had not led them to commiting terrorist acts which took away the ultimate human right, the right to life, of thousands of Americans.
No i dont suggest they are being detained because they are responsible for 9/11. I am implying that these people may have close relations with people in these terrorist organisations and that they themselves pose a threat to the west of similar atrocities re-occuring.

I dont imply that two wrongs make a right as i never once said it was correct for the guards to mistreat prisoners i merely said that if these small acts of mistreatment are getting so much media coverage and are being placed as having such high importance, we really are missing the bigger picture.

And yes, if 9/11 hadnt have happened, i seriously doubt we would have gone to war with iraq, i seriously doubt we would ever initiated a hunt for bin laden and i seriously doubt that such detention centres such as G bay would have been set up.
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jacko!
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#36
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#36
i never implied kicking the QURAN was a worthy operation in the war on terror at all, dont be so facesious, i dont condone it at all either, i merely think it is slightly irrelevant in the scheme of things, or would you place it high up on the political agenda?
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Tonight Matthew
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#37
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(Original post by jacko!)
No i dont suggest they are being detained because they are responsible for 9/11. I am implying that these people may have close relations with people in these terrorist organisations and that they themselves pose a threat to the west of similar atrocities re-occuring.
So - is kicking their holy book likely to stop these atrocities reoccuring? Or is it likely to galvanize young Muslim men and push them into extremism?

(Original post by jacko!)
I dont imply that two wrongs make a right as i never once said it was correct for the guards to mistreat prisoners i merely said that if these small acts of mistreatment are getting so much media coverage and are being placed as having such high importance, we really are missing the bigger picture.
Well, these occurences getting so much attention highlights the point that we are supposed to behave in a way that is so much better than those we are detaining.

I think your assertion that we're missing the bigger picture is a false one. Anyone with the slightest bit of intelligence should be able to maintain "the bigger picture" in their minds, irrespective of the media. I know I can, clearly you and others can as well.
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Tonight Matthew
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#38
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#38
(Original post by jacko!)
i dont condone it at all either
(Original post by jacko!)
they can learn to deal with the qu'ran being kicked once or twice.
....
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Vienna
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#39
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#39
(Original post by Tonight Matthew)
So - is kicking their holy book likely to stop these atrocities reoccuring? Or is it likely to galvanize young Muslim men and push them into extremism?
Neither, it only serves to undermine the campaign and goals in the eyes of moderates and the West.

I think your assertion that we're missing the bigger picture is a false one. Anyone with the slightest bit of intelligence should be able to maintain "the bigger picture" in their minds, irrespective of the media. I know I can, clearly you and others can as well.
The bigger picture is one of American evil, British lapdogs and the injustice of US imperialism.
I know of several people on this forum that support the leftist theory that the coalition are inherently wrong, Saddam Hussein is the legitimate leader of Iraq and coalition soldiers get whats coming to them.
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Tonight Matthew
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#40
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#40
Neither, it only serves to undermine the campaign and goals in the eyes of moderates and the West.
You genuinely don't think that kicking a Koran is likely to anger young Muslims, fire up anti-Americanism, etc?

(Original post by Vienna)
I know of several people on this forum who dont. Northumbrian is the latest.
Well, that's just plain ridiculous.
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