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University of the Arts London

London

Is UAL really as bad as some people make out??

i'm seriously considering UAL for Uni next year, looking at LCF and Wimbledon for costume, but after reading some comments on the teaching etc i was suprised and its starting to put me off. i read in a paper it was the lowest scoring uni in the UK for student satisfaction.... should all this put me off visiting and applying??

any comments much appreciated, thanks x

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Reply 1

Aiko

This is very much dependent on the college and course you're intending to apply for. The 'UAL' itself is just an administrative body that manages the six colleges it comprises. The teaching will also obviously vary from course to course, so it's practically impossible to generalise.

Personally, I was definitely satisfied with my own course at CSM and probably wouldn't have gained my foot in the door at my first job at Conde Nast without it. Moreover, the teaching was largely conducted by guest tutors who were successfully working in the industry. I found their advice and support worthwhile. The creative environment of a specialist art and design school was also something I really liked, especially because of how multicultural the student body was.

On the other hand, there were many students that found it difficult to work independently and disliked the environment. More specifically, some of the courses offered really are poor and should be reviewed. I suppose, in essence, it's important to review the courses you've chosen carefully before deciding to go.

I would advise attending an Open Day for both colleges in order to make your own opinion. :smile:

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Reply 2

**Smiles**

Thanks for the feedback! UAL does definately seem to be respected in the industry which was partly why i'm drawn to it. wow so your working for conde nast now?that must be awesome. There are a couple of open days coming up so i guess this will give me a clearer idea.

Although it sounds like a while ago you were starting out at the uni, how easy did u find it to get halls in the first year? as i no there isn't enough for everyone.

thanks a lot :biggrin:

Reply 3

kat2pult

I've heard some really great things about UAL. Definitely have a read of some of Matisse's other posts, she gives very accurate and honest views of UAL. She's the TSR know-it-all in that respect :wink:

Definitely go and check the places out before you go there and try to talk to the course leaders.

Although I must say, I have had problems when I've tried contacting them. I got offered a place there on results day through clearing and the man I spoke to told me to email the course leader and I haven't heard back from her yet. I had to choose an alternative :frown:

Sometimes when I called them they'd put me through to the wrong department or say they had no idea that LCC did graphic design :s-smilie:

I don't think that'd effect the student satisfaction much. Most the people I know who went there loved it, but then I also know a couple of people who hated it and went elsewhere. I guess it's a Marmite uni :wink:

Reply 4

**Smiles**

yeah thanks for that, i guess course leaders can give the most accurate info.

o dear sounds like u had a pretty stressful experience. hope it works out for you, where have u ended up now?

yeah opinions do seem pretty split on how good it is from what i've read. i'm trying not to let it sway me too much at this stage as i havn't spoken to anyone doing a course similar to what i'm interested in...

Reply 5

Aiko

**Smiles**

Thanks for the feedback! UAL does definitely seem to be respected in the industry which was partly why i'm drawn to it.

The "respect" from the creative industries is not so much for the 'UAL', but the six colleges themselves. They have been established long before the university itself has, producing many eminent alumni in the process, and continue to do so. The principle strength behind the colleges of this university is the close connection with the industry, of which is only truly accessible to those that want it. In addition to inviting regular guest tutors and lecturers from the industry, most courses will also offer the opportunity of work placements and to enter recognised awarding schemes, of which many of the colleges and their courses win.

However, from my own observation, there are only 'certain' courses that are renowned and acknowledged by the creative industries. You will find, particularly at the larger colleges such as LCC and LCF, that the majority of the courses are relatively new and haven't established a proper track-record yet. I've noticed, for instance, that LCC has some truly excellent courses that have been around since the college's inception, which are, in my opinion, some of the best in this country for what they do, but conversely, also have some really lackluster courses too. The problem lies in that the university has felt the need to create new courses, likely to increase profits, when they should be focusing on a select few courses instead. I guess, at the smaller colleges such as Chelsea, Camberwell and Wimbledon, they have achieved this. Those three colleges only offer a few courses, of which I have found them to be very good, particularly at Chelsea. In your case, Wimbledon's Costume Design course is very good. I have visited quite a few times and have been impressed with the work produced.

wow so your working for conde nast now?that must be awesome.

I underwent a work placement during my second year of my degree at CSM and gained employment at Vogue House upon graduation. However, I've since branched into advertising and branding where I work for a much smaller agency. Although the experience of working for a larger publisher was incredibly useful, I found the corporate environment creatively restricting. Aside from that, I prefer working in a smaller office with a team I enjoy being with.

There are a couple of open days coming up so i guess this will give me a clearer idea.

That's good. The six colleges really are quite different, not only in their size but also in their teaching approach and overall character. You will definitely notice this when you go to LCF and Wimbledon.

Although it sounds like a while ago you were starting out at the uni, how easy did u find it to get halls in the first year? as i no there isn't enough for everyone.

thanks a lot :biggrin:

Luckily, I had no issues with accommodation, although this is probably because I was an international student. I applied to Manna Ash and was allocated a room after my acceptance to CSM. In fact, throughout the application process, I've never had any issues with the administration. When I contacted CSM, they responded swiftly and politely, which is a real contrast from some of the experiences I've heard and read about. Unfortunately, the 'UAL' can't provide accommodation for everyone. They will place preference on those further away from London.

kat2pult

Thanks.

- I try my best to depart my own knowledge and experience of the university, in the most impartial and accurate way possible. Naturally, there will be an element of bias because of my positive experience, but I'm also aware that the university is far from perfect overall. This is why people need to realise that the six colleges are different and especially the courses.

Although I must say, I have had problems when I've tried contacting them. I got offered a place there on results day through clearing and the man I spoke to told me to email the course leader and I haven't heard back from her yet. I had to choose an alternative :frown:

Sometimes when I called them they'd put me through to the wrong department or say they had no idea that LCC did graphic design :s-smilie:

Each college has their own governing body, except Camberwell, Chelsea and Wimbledon that have one due to their size. Within those governing bodies, there are different administrative departments for the larger colleges. CSM, for instance, there is one department for the Drama Centre London, one for Byam Shaw School of Art and one for the Graphic and Industrial Design School, etc. The registrar and people you contact will vary. There is definitely a lack of communication and connection across the university, where most governing bodies never even interact with each other. This is why the person wasn't even aware that LCC had a graphic design school. It's something that's being addressed, supposedly. Sorry to read that you couldn't gain your place through Clearing because of this.

Reply 6

**Smiles**

wow thanks for all the great info, it has really helped me :biggrin:

it's sounding to me Wimbledon is likely to be more course specific for what i want, and its good to know that the course is good from your experience of seeing it, thanks :smile:

Reply 7

Aiko

**Smiles**

wow thanks for all the great info, it has really helped me :biggrin:

it's sounding to me Wimbledon is likely to be more course specific for what i want, and its good to know that the course is good from your experience of seeing it, thanks :smile:

Not a problem, glad to help. Wimbledon is actually best known, along with fine art, for costume design. As you probably already know, alumni such as Georgina Chapman came from this course. They have also recently invested in a brand new theatre, which will help. The college is also the smallest out of the six, thus providing more tutoring time. I wouldn't dismiss LCF outright, though. Along with any other colleges and universities you've considered, attend an Open Day for both. It's the best way to see the college and the facilities provided, while having the opportunity to chat with the tutors and students. :smile:

Reply 8

bete noire

kat2pult

Sometimes when I called them they'd put me through to the wrong department or say they had no idea that LCC did graphic design :s-smilie:

Are you going to LCC?

Reply 9

kat2pult

bete noire

Are you going to LCC?

Nope, 2 weeks on and I've had no reply. Check out my signature...

Reply 10

bete noire

Yeah, there's some mad waiting list, i tried to change my course through clearing, not heard a peep. and that was for some dud fda course.

arts london is hot for graphics right now, you can't sleep on that stuff. If you'd have gotten in you would be on the same course as my best friend.

Reply 11

Plasmatic

Well, looking at the league tables and satisfaction rates, it seems bad. But ever since I was eleven years old and began devouring fashion and art magazines, many of designers and artists I loved came from CSM. So it seemed like this powerhouse producing amazing people.

Then, like I said, I looked at the league tables, and got a bit put off, but I visited Loboro Uni to check out their art foundation, supposedly fourth best in the country. I was thoroughly disappointed. The building looked the poor relation compared to the rest of the uni, and I was uninspired by the work, the tutors and just the general feel. Similarly, I checked out Slade at UCL, second best in the country. Again, just didn't get that creative feeling. Technically good work, for sure, but the work didn't make a big impact. No boundary pushing, it felt like.

I then proceeded to the degree shows at Chelsea and CSM, and to me the work was on a different level altogether! Some of the buildings are old etc, but it's classic art school! It felt like a place where things were happening. It's got a huge reputation, especially in the graphic and fashion design industry, and internationally also. It seems forward thinking. Ultimately, it's dedicated to art, and that's the sort of place I want to go. I also recently attended a summer school short course at CSM, and I loved it; the people in my group, the feel of the place, the tutor, the work. It made me very determined to try my absolute best to get into this place.

I honestly believe that gut feeling is a good thing to go on. Statistics and views of others can help, but ultimately the best uni is the one you want to go to. Don't be afraid to visit somewhere. See it with your own eyes, speak to people there, look at the work. Also, the Times Online reports that in general, Art and Design students are always the least satisfied with their Uni course. We're hard to please!

Reply 12

Aiko

Plasmatic

From my own experience, having visited numerous institutions across the country when scouting for potential recruitment for the advertising and branding agency I work for, in addition to previously applying to a number of places before ultimately deciding upon CSM, I'd say newspaper league tables such as the Times and Guardian are largely inaccurate and irrelevant when considering art and design courses. More specifically, they don't tailor for the creative industries at all. You'd be far better off looking at recognised awarding schemes that are funded and supported by these industries, many of which are dominated by the six colleges of the UAL. BP Portrait Prize, British Fashion Designer of the Year, D&AD Student Award, Prince Philip Designers Prize, Saatchi Scholarship, and the Turner Prize, to name a few. Academically, the University does perform far greater in the RAE and QAA inspection, which is a far more reliable measure of the University's research and teaching than any newspaper could provide. It doesn't help that the Times and Guardian produce such disparate results. Regarding the student satisfaction, I wrote a lengthly post regarding this in another thread in this UAL forum, which you can probably find if you search around a little. Lastly, the six colleges of the UAL have been around for decades, producing, as you say, hundreds and hundreds of eminent alumni that have contributed to the arts internationally. So, bottom line is, whilst it's important to pay some attention to newspaper league tables, because there is some bearing, it's definitely not highlighting the apparent strengths behind this university, nor does it demonstrate why the UAL is one of the largest universities, when combining all six colleges, in the country, despite being wholly specialist in the arts.

Reply 13

Plasmatic

Thanks for that. It's something I've figured out as I've been muddling my way through looking for Art courses. As you say, the league tables are just not suited for the creative courses. As soon as I saw the work and general spirit of both CSM and Chelsea (I've also seen LCC, but I wasn't as keen) there was no doubt in my mind that the reputation they held was definitely for a reason.

Reply 14

Aiko

Plasmatic

I felt exactly the same way when I was researching what colleges and universities to apply for. I also considered the Slade/UCL, along with Ruskin/Oxford, and felt that neither, despite being specialist, possessed that creative energy that CSM had. I also agree that Chelsea has the same feeling, which is enhanced by its beautiful site at Millbank. This is not to dismiss the other places, which are very good, and I realise that I'm coming across as incredibly biased, but it's just how I see it. Even the RCA, which I later attended for my postgraduate, lacked that creative atmosphere of my time at CSM. I felt like everyday at the college was going to offer something different. On the other hand, it's true that the environment is very much an acquired taste, one that you either love or hate. I suppose you just need to visit, like yourself, to determine whether these colleges are right for you. This also applies within the UAL, as evidenced by your preference for CSM and Chelsea, but not LCC. They do vary. :smile:

Reply 15

Plasmatic

It's good they vary though! I could honestly think of nothing worse than having uniform colleges with no identity. I'm definitely going to check out the other UAL colleges too; I'm interested to see what they have to offer.

The main thing which put me off LCC slightly was the tutor I spoke to on an open day last year seemed really down on CSM. She told me that it was better to go to LCC because CSM 'just has loads of Japanese people' and 'people sit painting twee tea cups'. Firstly, I'd be delighted to enter a multicultural college where I can meet as many different people as possible, so her comment really irked me :/. And, from what I saw at the degree shows, and my short course, twee tea cups and doilies are far from CSM style work. Especially after the short course tutor at CSM was very complimentary of the other UAL colleges, and said that each one had its specialisms. The students I met at LCC, however, were lovely, and a lot of the photography was superb, so I wouldn't discount it. I do eventually want to do Graphic Design (at least I think I do!) but the idea of a more broad Foundation course as a 'diagnosis' year such as the ones at CSM, Wimbledon and Chelsea appeal more to me.

Out of interest, why did you move for your postgraduate degree?

Reply 16

Aiko

Plasmatic

Oh, absolutely. In fact, one of the primary concerns that many people have with the UAL is that it will end up consuming the six colleges completely, losing any distinctiveness and individuality. Apparently, many people in the art world were extremely saddened to see the Central School of Art and Design and the Saint Martins School of Art merge and deemed it something of an abomination, especially considering they were rival colleges for over one hundred years. At the very least, from the very beginning, the UAL/London Institute has always maintained the identity of each college, something of which I'm glad for. I believe they recognise that the wide majority of their students don't so much choose to study at UAL, but specifically at one of the six colleges. You will often find that when asked, a student will say they study at CSM, not UAL, or Chelsea, not UAL. I know for certain that I didn't even think about the UAL itself when I applied. I wanted to go to CSM and that college alone. I don't think I even understood what the then London Institute (now UAL) was. I just hope the administration will maintain this sensitivity for the six college's heritages and understand that their reputation is primarily based upon that.

The main thing which put me off LCC slightly was the tutor I spoke to on an open day last year seemed really down on CSM. She told me that it was better to go to LCC because CSM 'just has loads of Japanese people' and 'people sit painting twee tea cups'. Firstly, I'd be delighted to enter a multicultural college where I can meet as many different people as possible, so her comment really irked me :/. And, from what I saw at the degree shows, and my short course, twee tea cups and doilies are far from CSM style work. Especially after the short course tutor at CSM was very complimentary of the other UAL colleges, and said that each one had its specialisms. The students I met at LCC, however, were lovely, and a lot of the photography was superb, so I wouldn't discount it. I do eventually want to do Graphic Design (at least I think I do!) but the idea of a more broad Foundation course as a 'diagnosis' year such as the ones at CSM, Wimbledon and Chelsea appeal more to me.

You need to remember that each staff member on each course does not represent their department nor college, let alone the rest of the university. They will have their individual opinions, which can unfortunately misguide prospective applicants. Never listen to a staff member from one college about another. You will find, especially because college's offer the same subjects, that there is a level of competitiveness between all six. As you could see, despite being from the same university, the staff was more than happy to give her honest opinion of CSM. Each college has a very different history, and as such, the reputation will vary between all six, for good or worse. This is why it's important to attend an Open Day for each in order to gain your own insight.

Out of interest, why did you move for your postgraduate degree?

Originally, after I graduated from CSM, I went straight into work for several years and didn't consider postgraduate study, let alone conducting research in this area. It was only until my employer offered the opportunity to part-fund my duration away from work, that I considered doing it. The reason I chose the Royal College of Art (RCA) over CSM is simply because I wanted a change. I was also really impressed with the RCA and its research output. The atmosphere was far more unified, probably due to being postgraduate, so everyone was much older. It lacked that youthful spirit of CSM, perhaps? :tongue:

Reply 17

Plasmatic

Yeah, the colleges definitely have their own identities for sure! At the CSM Graphic Design degree show, one of the students had made these individual packs for each of the colleges, with t-shirts and coasters etc. CSM's one was 'Pretentious Prats' or something, Camberwell's was 'More Hobo than Boho', LCF's was 'CSM Rejects' and Chelsea's was 'Pimlico!?'. They made me laugh! We were warned on the short course, though, that Byam Shaw may not exist in a few years time, and not be known as Byam, just simply another CSM site. I don't think that's a problem really though, as most see as CSM anyway.

Ah, okay. I can definitely see the appeal of RCA, as it's wholly postgrad, so it's like a different experience. I also imagine it would feel weird returning to the same place after a few years! Like going back to school!

Yeah, I understand people obviously have their own opinions about other places, but it was the nature of her comments really. The thought of her teaching me is not a nice one. It's a shame that she was the one I spoke to, and I know she isn't representative of the place as a whole, but I would like to think the people teaching a course I want to do would be unprejudiced and more polite. Or, at least keep personal opinions aside. But as I said, I couldn't fault the work or general enthusiasm of everyone there. I'd still rather apply there than Loughborough >.<!

Reply 18

Aiko

Plasmatic

Funnily enough, I went to this year's graphic design degree show too and saw that project. Was quite distinctive, as evidenced by both of us remembering it. :giggle:

- You can see the project on their external website:

http://2009.csmgraphicdesign.com/showcase.php?type=proj&user_id=187&proj_num=2&pcate=0&scate=0

Ah, okay. I can definitely see the appeal of RCA, as it's wholly postgrad, so it's like a different experience. I also imagine it would feel weird returning to the same place after a few years! Like going back to school!

Yes, precisely. I wanted something different, despite wanting to return to an art and design school still. There was no alternative but to remain in London, which I definitely wanted anyway, so the RCA was more or less the only choice for me. It was certainly the right one, in retrospect. I think another factor that contributed to the different experience I had, in addition to it being wholly postgraduate, is that I was a research student. I wasn't undergoing a taught masters, which would have been somewhat similar to my undergraduate. I didn't have any set classes, per se, I was just conducting my research in their department, with the aid of my professor, which led to a completely different type of experience unto itself.

Yeah, I understand people obviously have their own opinions about other places, but it was the nature of her comments really. The thought of her teaching me is not a nice one. It's a shame that she was the one I spoke to, and I know she isn't representative of the place as a whole, but I would like to think the people teaching a course I want to do would be unprejudiced and more polite. Or, at least keep personal opinions aside. But as I said, I couldn't fault the work or general enthusiasm of everyone there. I'd still rather apply there than Loughborough >.<!

Unfortunately, you will encounter impolite and nonprofessional staff at either college across the university. The staff will inevitably vary considerably, which is why it's important to attend an Open Day, like you did, to make a judgement as to their character. I made the mistake of ignoring the type of person my course director was, simply because I was so adamant to gain a place on my course at CSM, I didn't care who he was. He was awful, although my second year tutor was fantastic. It's just the way it is, sadly.

Reply 19

Plasmatic

Ah! I was looking for that project, thanks for the link! I shall bookmark it :smile:

Yeah, I really enjoyed the show in general actual, a lot of the work still sticks out in my mind.

So did you enjoy doing research? Is it mainly writing and reading?

That's a shame about your tutor. I found out whilst doing AS Levels how bad it can be to have an appalling teacher. Whilst you can always do work yourself and glean help from others, there's nothing like having a good, dedicated tutor to support your studies. In what way was your tutor bad- effort, knowledge, reliability? But I think I'd be similar to you in that respect; so long as I got in to CSM, I'd most likely put up with whoever I was given. Maybe even the rude lady ^_^