TSR Med Students' Society (TSR Meds) Watch

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Fluffy
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#9121
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#9121
(Original post by Elles)
Hopefully a fortnight right now I will be onto at least cocktail number 3...
GOOD LUCK!!!
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Touche
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#9122
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(Original post by Saffie)
when something goes wrong in an op due to surgeon error, but its rectified.. do you have to tell the patient?
The exam answer is always tell em everything.
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Demon_AS
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#9123
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(Original post by Touche)
The exam answer is always tell em everything.
And the "real life" answer...?
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Touche
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#9124
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(Original post by Demon_AS)
And the "real life" answer...?
If the complication added more than about 5-10 mins to the op, stressed you out and wasn't mentioned in the consent: you tell em...

If the "complication" happens a lot, took a couple mins to fix, didn't stress anyone and was mentioned in the consent: you probably just leave it...

Also depends on whether it's an emergency procedure or elective. For electives you and the patient have agreed on the surgery even though it isn't immediately necessary... so you tend to tell em exactly how things happened. For emergencies the patients have lower expectations and are happy to just leave hospital alive and without MRSA :P
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Demon_AS
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#9125
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(Original post by Touche)
If the complication added more than about 5-10 mins to the op, stressed you out and wasn't mentioned in the consent: you tell em...

If the "complication" happens a lot, took a couple mins to fix, didn't stress anyone and was mentioned in the consent: you probably just leave it...

Also depends on whether it's an emergency procedure or elective. For electives you and the patient have agreed on the surgery even though it isn't immediately necessary... so you tend to tell em exactly how things happened. For emergencies the patients have lower expectations and are happy to just leave hospital alive and without MRSA :P
Lol, I'll remember that...
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Demon_AS
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#9126
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(Original post by Saffie)
So say the complication adds 2 hrs to the op and you don't tell the pt.. How bads that?
Going by what Touché said... probably very bad.
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Jamie
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#9127
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#9127
(Original post by Saffie)
So say the complication adds 2 hrs to the op and you don't tell the pt.. How bads that?
quite bad, because frankly every minute of op is a minute of anesthesia risk
Touche
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#9128
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#9128
A mistake which takes 2 hours to fix is a big un. Not informing patients of major **** ups is very very dodgy.
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Demon_AS
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#9129
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#9129
Especially, presumably, if they find out about it afterwards :p:.
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Ataloss
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#9130
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(Original post by Elles)

Hopefully a fortnight right now I will be onto at least cocktail number 3...
Only number 3. :eek:

Have you bought yourself a new wardrobe for the elective? It is clearly an essential requirement for any elective. :yep:
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Elles
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#9131
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#9131
Fluffy - she'll be there for our 2nd half (she's my elective buddy for the first half) so till ~ 18th April, any overlap?

(Original post by Ataloss)
Only number 3. :eek:

Have you bought yourself a new wardrobe for the elective? It is clearly an essential requirement for any elective. :yep:
Well, we don't find out whether we're needed for the 'extension' stations the next day till ~8pm, so I was factoring in sobbing to the welfare/pastoral deans time.

I was organized at the end of summer in snapping up pacific island/NZ appropriate clothes. Wondering how much of a problem Christmas + sitting on my arse + raised cortisol levels is going to be though... :o: & second half now in a rather chilly part of the USA, so will be having packing fun!
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Hygeia
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#9132
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grr, this placement hasn't been very well organised so far... turned up at 8.30 for a clinic that apparently doesn't exist (which does give me an unexpected day off but if i'd known i could have actually slept in!)
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bright star
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#9133
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#9133
hello peoples,
how's life going for you lot?
i'm really really enjoying my time off!!
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Wangers
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#9134
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(Original post by Saffie)
So say the complication adds 2 hrs to the op and you don't tell the pt.. How bads that?
It would just be novel to get the surgeon who ****** up to explain themselves wouldn't it? Do you have to do it, or are you just ethically inclined? :eyeball:
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Wangers
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#9135
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I just had a lecture on cardiac myogenesis. I dozed through it, all I can remember is Ca2+ causes AP and SA ****** -> escape rhythem.

I just don't remember large swathes of that hour. And sober too. hmm
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Helenia
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#9136
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#9136
(Original post by Saffie)
So say the complication adds 2 hrs to the op and you don't tell the pt.. How bads that?
If you have concerns, I'd very much recommend talking to someone at the clinical school or at least someone more senior, rather than gossiping about it - a friend of mine got in trouble last year for commenting on someone's (lack of) competency to friends. I realise that as a medical student it's usually terrifying, especially with surgeons, to suggest that they might/ought to do something better, but I wouldn't let that stop you from doing something if you're really worried about it.

(Original post by Wangers)
It would just be novel to get the surgeon who ****** up to explain themselves wouldn't it? Do you have to do it, or are you just ethically inclined?
As I mentioned just now, you try saying that to a consultant surgeon when you're a first year clinical student! Or even final year...or possibly even qualified...they're still pretty scary.
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Wangers
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#9137
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(Original post by Helenia)
As I mentioned just now, you try saying that to a consultant surgeon when you're a first year clinical student! Or even final year...or possibly even qualified...they're still pretty scary.
Scary because people can react if you embarrass them or point out something they didn't quite get right. I can see how it could all go wrong if they're told they ****** up by someone not even out of medical school. (regardless of how right they are). People get very touchy when embarrassed/humiliated/caught out/accused of things. I can see how they get scary

Saffie, I wouldn't tell the pt yourself, I think that would be overstepping the mark. I would contact whoever the teaching Dean is at the hospital and point out that a 'little bird' knows of a certain situation and you're not sure how to resolve it. Just tell them the facts, not what you think should get done, and let it be sorted out diplomatically in the background. I would guess that there might be a fair amount of pride/ego involved. The other thing I would do is deleate these posts, because it could be construed as a accusation of incompetence/slander. At the same time, let your personal/PPD/PDS/medical school tutor know whats going on. Keeping a record might not go amiss either.
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Ataloss
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#9138
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(Original post by Wangers)

Saffie, I wouldn't tell the pt yourself, I think that would be overstepping the mark. I would contact whoever the teaching Dean is at the hospital and point out that a 'little bird' knows of a certain situation and you're not sure how to resolve it. Just tell them the facts, not what you think should get done, and let it be sorted out diplomatically in the background. I would guess that there might be a fair amount of pride/ego involved. The other thing I would do is deleate these posts, because it could be construed as a accusation of incompetence/slander. At the same time, let your personal/PPD/PDS/medical school tutor know whats going on. Keeping a record might not go amiss either.
That would be somewhat of an over-reaction - providing that in all likelihood as a medical student she was observing rather assisting.

In the theatre scenario, there will have been:-

Anaesthetist (likely Consultant or SPR)
Surgeon 2/assistant (likely Surgical SPR or SHO or both)
Theatre scrub nurse

A 2 hour delay due to a complication will have resulted in delays in theatre list etc.. so the theatre manager and other senior medical staff will have been informed.

Given all the senior people involved, if any serious action needed to be taken - it would be.

Certainly, the surgeon would have documented in the operation notes regarding the complication as would the Anaesthetist.

The patient will I am sure in due course be informed particularly if the complication has health implications for them.

It is clearly upsetting to witness mistakes/complications as a medical student - but I think to take the steps that you are suggesting would be an over-reaction.
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Wangers
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#9139
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#9139
(Original post by Ataloss)
That would be somewhat of an over-reaction - providing that in all likelihood as a medical student she was observing rather assisting.

In the theatre scenario, there will have been:-

Anaesthetist (likely Consultant or SPR)
Surgeon 2/assistant (likely Surgical SPR or SHO or both)
Theatre scrub nurse

A 2 hour delay due to a complication will have resulted in delays in theatre list etc.. so the theatre manager and other senior medical staff will have been informed.

Given all the senior people involved, if any serious action needed to be taken - it would be.

Certainly, the surgeon would have documented in the operation notes regarding the complication as would the Anaesthetist.

The patient will I am sure in due course be informed particularly if the complication has health implications for them.

It is clearly upsetting to witness mistakes/complications as a medical student - but I think to take the steps that you are suggesting would be an over-reaction.
Fair play, I hadn't thought that through.
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Fluffy
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#9140
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#9140
(Original post by Wangers)
It would just be novel to get the surgeon who ****** up to explain themselves wouldn't it? Do you have to do it, or are you just ethically inclined? :eyeball:
My last consultant would even appologise for things that were common, minor complications, despite the patient being well aware of the risk on the basis of "I did the op, so I caused it and for that I'm sorry". Seems to result in a lot of chocolate!
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