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    You meet some people who are wonderful academically and have all the best grades but have apsolutly no common sense or awareness of the real world.
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    To my mind the world needs more elitism and less people going to study pointless subjects at uni
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    emma_ exaclty! i got to a public school and we were TOLD NOT to apply to Bristol because of their evident bias against my school! I went ahead anyway - being stubborn because I really wanted to go there, and got rejected, as did 90% of the applicants who applied there from my school (all predicted straight AAA or AAAA etc) and then i got accepted by Ox. The people who did get offers got AAA offers. Our teachers wern't suprised at all and were just like "well we told you so!" GRRRRR
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    I go to a state school but I do think its unfair the way that some unis are treating private school applicants. Before, when unis (especially Bristol) were being accused of making more offers to private school applicants this was mainly because they offered higher grades. Now its changed the private school applicants are being discriminated directly because of the type of school they go to, not because of their grades.
    I think admissions tutors should totally ignore the school you are from and make their decision based on the student, taking of course into account the context of their academic achievement which should be outlined in the reference.
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    (Original post by emma_)
    Everyone talks about it being unfair going to a state school because unis always take so many people from private schools.

    It's actually turning into the reverse, especially at Bristol. In my school (a private school) teachers are almost surprised if you get an offer from there, and if you do it's almost inevitably going to be an AAA offer. I agree with getting more people from state schools into top unis but it's starting to mean that good private school people are being rejected.

    For example, I have a friend predicted AAA, good GCSEs, good personal statement, good references (last line of it was 'I cannot recommend him more highly'), got into Oxford now i come to think of it, but was rejected from Bristol.
    well i think positive discrimination has to be employed at some places...obviously it shouldnt go too far...but we should have an equal system where regardless of your school, its YOU that the univeristy consider
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    (Original post by cobra01977)
    To my mind the world needs more elitism and less people going to study pointless subjects at uni
    Right on. Glad I'm not the only one to think that.
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    (Original post by emzie)
    emma_ exaclty! i got to a public school and we were TOLD NOT to apply to Bristol because of their evident bias against my school! I went ahead anyway - being stubborn because I really wanted to go there, and got rejected, as did 90% of the applicants who applied there from my school (all predicted straight AAA or AAAA etc) and then i got accepted by Ox. The people who did get offers got AAA offers.
    Well....I go to a college right at the bottom of the league tables and I had AAA etc, and still got rejected.
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    thats strange, coz bristol are openingly admitting to predjudice against private school ppl
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    (Original post by lyd)
    LSE isn't elitist, if anything, it employs positive discrimination more than other top unis. (just see how many straight-A students complain about those with lower predicted grades getting offers from LSE whilst they get rejections). i am all for trying to spot potential rather than just going on grades.

    LSE is one of the best universities, after oxbridge. LSE has the WORLD's best social science department - it has the best research facilities, and manages to get its funding, partly by accepting international students, and by its recent campign to raise £100m..

    LSE has a great rep amongst employers. Yes, AAA students are often rejected, this is a shame, - but they are over subscribed - what can you expect?? they should introduce their own test like some oxbridge colleges do..

    (for more info about the debate - oxbridge vs lse for eco'
    find the thread..somewher on 2nd/3rd page - it has poll 2)
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    (Original post by OldBailey)
    Right on. Glad I'm not the only one to think that.
    What exactly is a 'pointless' subject, in your eyes?
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    err.. zero, what?

    where did i denigrate the quality of LSE? I was merely applauding unis like LSE and Bristol who don't only admit on the basis of academic grades, but look at the wider potential of the applicant. (having straight As mean very little if you lack common sense and are a moron)

    you know, i am a fellow LSE-er too (i am assuming you are from lse, considering the way you waxed lyrical about it), but it's just embarrassing the way you want to hype up your own uni...
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    (Original post by cobra01977)
    To my mind the world needs more elitism and less people going to study pointless subjects at uni
    The two are mutually exclusive in terms of what we're talking about.
    It's stupid comments like this that make me despair about the state of education.
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    (Original post by Hades)
    What exactly is a 'pointless' subject, in your eyes?
    'Subjects' that don't necessarily need a degree to confirm that the person in question is suitably qualified for the job.

    For hundreds of years people have been following in their father's footsteps/ becoming apprentices to others, and learning 'on the job'.
    They gain firsthand experience and are quite competent in their trade - take for example fishermen, groundsmen, thatchers etc.

    Then the government decides that everyone should go to uni, and that what has worked for years is in fact out-dated. This has the effect, I would argue, in some instances of telling those involved in such trades (e.g. fishing - and I use this example because its happened in my home town) that they are wasting their time or that they will not be competent enough to do the job without a piece of paper saying they can.

    Now I'm not saying that anyone should be prevented from aspiring to bigger and better things - we all should, but in some instances I see no need for a degree when the experience can be gained as an apprentice etc. This would also help with living arrangements - instead of being saddled with huge debts, people would be being paid to do what they want to do.

    p.s. Perhaps I was being a bit flippant about needing more elitism, but I stand by the other point.
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    (Original post by OldBailey)
    'Subjects' that don't necessarily need a degree to confirm that the person in question is suitably qualified for the job.

    For hundreds of years people have been following in their father's footsteps/ becoming apprentices to others, and learning 'on the job'.
    They gain firsthand experience and are quite competent in their trade - take for example fishermen, groundsmen, thatchers etc.

    Then the government decides that everyone should go to uni, and that what has worked for years is in fact out-dated. This has the effect, I would argue, in some instances of telling those involved in such trades (e.g. fishing - and I use this example because its happened in my home town) that they are wasting their time or that they will not be competent enough to do the job without a piece of paper saying they can.

    Now I'm not saying that anyone should be prevented from aspiring to bigger and better things - we all should, but in some instances I see no need for a degree when the experience can be gained as an apprentice etc. This would also help with living arrangements - instead of being saddled with huge debts, people would be being paid to do what they want to do.

    p.s. Perhaps I was being a bit flippant about needing more elitism, but I stand by the other point.
    What about the stigma attached to not having a degree? Society is cruel. People are measured by their academic achievements. I think this is disgusting, but sadly, it is the way things are, and I'm not going to be so hypocritical as to say I've never done it myself (judged somebody based on their academic performance) because I believe we all have at some point. Maybe people doing subjects like Media would rather have a degree, though they don't need one, because it will demonstrate to others that they are capable of dealing with material at University level. Frankly, I don't blame them.
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    Honestly, if I was living in a thatched house and my thatcher didn't have a degree but was someone whose family/ company had been involved in thatching since time immemorial then I wouldn't be too fussed. chances of me living in a thatched house though...

    That's a good point about the stigma attached to people without degrees, though it deals with a different side of the question - not dealing with the individuals competency, but society's perception. So why is the government endorsing this view? Why does it not appear to encourage (at least on the same scale as going to university) alternative ways of entering jobs? In telling everyone to go to university, those that don't will feel stigmatised.

    And even if everyone did end up going to university, what use then would a degree be? It would become like A-Levels, and more people would then go on to do MAs, and then when everyone does an MA everyone will end up in a PhD - what's the need?

    Blair says it is necessary for more people to get "top quality education" but a) some people aren't suited to uni and I would argue b) some trades aren't suited to uni. To a certain extent it depends on your definition of education. If you perceive it in terms of bits of paper, then everyone should go to uni. If education can be accquired on the job then, no, not everyone needs to go.
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    (Original post by lyd)
    err.. zero, what?

    where did i denigrate the quality of LSE? I was merely applauding unis like LSE and Bristol who don't only admit on the basis of academic grades, but look at the wider potential of the applicant. (having straight As mean very little if you lack common sense and are a moron)

    you know, i am a fellow LSE-er too (i am assuming you are from lse, considering the way you waxed lyrical about it), but it's just embarrassing the way you want to hype up your own uni...
    actually im not at LSE
    i have applied 4 eco 2004 entry and am waitin for an offer hopefully
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    I think a lot of this relies on the half truth that there are a huge number of people doing silly degrees at silly universities around the country.

    At the former polys etc, you're far more likely to find people on a slickly run if rather underfunded vocational healthcare (or whatever) course.

    Blair said he wanted 50% of people in higher education. He didn't say 50% of people should do academic courses.
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    (Original post by OldBailey)
    Honestly, if I was living in a thatched house and my thatcher didn't have a degree but was someone whose family/ company had been involved in thatching since time immemorial then I wouldn't be too fussed. chances of me living in a thatched house though...
    Yes, but would you respect them? I suspect the answer is no. Regarding somebody as competent and appreciating their intelligence are two different things.

    (Original post by OldBailey)
    And even if everyone did end up going to university, what use then would a degree be? It would become like A-Levels, and more people would then go on to do MAs, and then when everyone does an MA everyone will end up in a PhD - what's the need?
    What? Are you basically trying to say that we need to deprive people of education just so people like you and I can flourish more easily? Doesn't sound at all fair to me. Also, some people don't just do a degree for a qualification, but for knowledge in itself.

    (Original post by OldBailey)
    Blair says it is necessary for more people to get "top quality education" but a) some people aren't suited to uni and I would argue b) some trades aren't suited to uni. To a certain extent it depends on your definition of education. If you perceive it in terms of bits of paper, then everyone should go to uni. If education can be accquired on the job then, no, not everyone needs to go.
    Not everyone NEEDS to go. But some want to- for their own satisfaction! And I don't see anything wrong with that. Also, in my mind, no subject is pointless.

    Though you make good points, I reckon you need to rethink your position, because it isn't very fair.
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    (Original post by lyd)
    i am all for trying to spot potential rather than just going on grades.
    Anyone predicted AAA is going to show his potential more at uni than someone with BBB
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    Blair argues that 50% should be in higher education, which to me is complete nonsense. Why even set a target like that? I will follow the words of Digby Jones, there is no point in it at all. The Blair Government needs to focus on the real issue, which should be further education- more people in further education is a lot better- given they have the chance to further their own educations. Where I live they are running the pilot schemes for Community Outreach. This is where schools open up at night on loan to local authorities for further education classes in whatever- from skills to sports to academia and computing. This has proved to be very successful in the less academically well-off places in my town.

    As for respecting people with or without a degree- I respect them regardless, and no that is not just because I am a rainbowchild. I have more respect for the person who has lived his or her life over the person who has not- for example my mother came to this country from Kenya and worked her way up by starting a family business with my father. t was only later on in life she wanted to have a degree because she valued education, not because she wanted respect. Society respected her because she was worth respecting. I think it is a rather sweeping statement to suggest society as a whole owes more respect to people with degrees- that may be true of the more elitist societies in question.

    Every university should encourage a degree of independent thought- it is cultures relativity that can cause the stealthy indoctrination of custom. It has been proved by an American university that reading different newspapers throughout the week will help you develope your own personal take on current affairs rather than the elite views of your own brand. If one goes to any of the named elitist universities, I perceive it dangerous to walk in fully open to their influence, rather I would like to be encouraged to "think out of the box" and find my own platforms. I live in a very Conservative and conservative town, with my positions at town, district and local government I am bombarded with offers for references and reccomendations to the Conservative party. I am a Liberal Democrat, although it is not my ideology that is in question here.

    I do not know about the rest of your schools so I will not generalise them, but I will tell you of my school. I go to a state comprehensive. We have three rules at my school which all start with respect. Our school has developed well over the years because it is open to people of all abilities, students develope their own rules out of respect for what they are given.

    Also, as an end note- there is sometimes not enough emphasis on academic ability in society than there should be. There are numerous sporting competitions, poetry etc but nothing to really reward people who have used their head. Sure there are debates and science awards such as CREST but no real achievement for independent thought, just reproccessed material.
 
 
 
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