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    (Original post by Hades)
    Yes, but would you respect them? I suspect the answer is no. Regarding somebody as competent and appreciating their intelligence are two different things.
    If I find someone competent, then I respect them. If I had a cowboy thatching my roof who had no training and was not from a line of thatchers, no I wouldn't respect them. Probably wouldn't have them thatching my roof either..!

    (Original post by Hades)
    What? Are you basically trying to say that we need to deprive people of education just so people like you and I can flourish more easily? Doesn't sound at all fair to me. Also, some people don't just do a degree for a qualification, but for knowledge in itself.
    I myself am doing my degree partly for knowledge-in-itself, and if you look at my earlier post, I said: "I'm not saying that anyone should be prevented from aspiring to bigger and better things - we all should, but in some instances I see no need for a degree when the experience can be gained as an apprentice etc." I'm not trying to deprive people of education either - as I said: "To a certain extent it depends on your definition of education. If you perceive it in terms of bits of paper, then everyone should go to uni [but not] if education can be accquired on the job."

    (Original post by Hades)
    Not everyone NEEDS to go. But some want to- for their own satisfaction! And I don't see anything wrong with that. Also, in my mind, no subject is pointless.
    Degrees in gaming, surfing, and modules in David Beckham all seem fairly obsolete to me.
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    (Original post by OldBailey)
    Degrees in gaming, surfing, and modules in David Beckham all seem fairly obsolete to me.
    The same logic says that a philosophy degree is useless unless you want to be a philosopher.

    I'm not making any specific comment on the quality of said courses, even if they do exist, but education isn't about what you learn - it is about training the mind.
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    I guess then you get into the area of what degrees are worthwhile and which aren't. Personally I think that a degree in Philosophy is better than one in Surfing...

    That is not to say that I think that Philosophy is better than a vocational course, such as the ones you talked about earlier (don't draw me into a discussion as to whether a surfing degree is vocational or not!). But I would have to suggest that they differ in that degress train the mind (to use your phrase) whereas vocational courses are just that and not necessarily used to train the mind in the same way.

    My point though has been that it is possible to train people, for vocational positions, in the workplace. I do not want to deny people the chance to 'education' nor am I saying that i have no respect for people without a degree, because that's narrow-minded and stupid.
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    All this talk reminds me of the old-school-boy network. Makes you wonder about the permanent government. Well, when I get in there things will have to change.
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    It's not what you know but who you know
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    (Original post by OldBailey)
    If I find someone competent, then I respect them. If I had a cowboy thatching my roof who had no training and was not from a line of thatchers, no I wouldn't respect them. Probably wouldn't have them thatching my roof either..!
    What I meant to illustrate with that point was the fact that in general, people have more respect for degree holders than for those who learnt skills on the job. I mean, lets just pretend this Thatcher had a degree of some sort. You'd be more likely to converse with him about current affairs than whether or not he likes his tea with sugar, wouldn't you?
    You'd be more likely to regard him as somebody you can have a worthwhile conversation with, rather than as a means to an end!


    (Original post by OldBailey)
    I myself am doing my degree partly for knowledge-in-itself, and if you look at my earlier post, I said: "I'm not saying that anyone should be prevented from aspiring to bigger and better things - we all should, but in some instances I see no need for a degree when the experience can be gained as an apprentice etc." I'm not trying to deprive people of education either - as I said: "To a certain extent it depends on your definition of education. If you perceive it in terms of bits of paper, then everyone should go to uni [but not] if education can be accquired on the job."
    The degree I have applied for is also partly for knowledge in itself, though it also has some vocational value to me as I plan to one day work for the UN (Politics).
    Anyway, University is about far more than bits of paper- as I mentioned before, degree holders command respect, and in addition to this, I think people feel more secure about their employment prospects. Also, these days, you are more likely to enter at a 'higher level' position if you hold a degree even in sectors where on-the-job training is the norm, e.g. Marketing.


    (Original post by OldBailey)
    Degrees in gaming, surfing, and modules in David Beckham all seem fairly obsolete to me.
    Well that's a bit shallow, isn't it? You are referring to specific material, when it is the way the student engages with it that is important. Subjects like Philosophy for example, may be viewed by some as a discipline with useless content- which is a fair enough point, though I cannot disagree more strongly. However, what you overlook is the generic skills that are gained through studying the subject- skills of analysis, logic, and the ability to grasp abstract concepts. Philosophy is simply the medium through which this is gained- same with your example, David Beckham is merely an enjoyable medium through which valuable skills can be learnt!
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    I have no problems with Universitys discriminating against Private School kids instead of State Schools kids with the same grades; its obvious that State School kids were able to gain the same grades even though they didn't have the advantages that Private school kids did.

    Sorry if that sounded like gobbeldy gook I haven't had alot of sleep.
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    I can understand why some universities might think its better to give an offer to a state school pupil who got BCC (or similar) compared to a private school pupil who may have got BBB, as private schools tend to pull middle ability students up. However it is outrageous that places such as Bristol are giving out ABB offers while rejecting students with 4 A's, these grades are as good as is feasibly possible: what more can the students do? The top students will always do well and 'positive' discrimination of this type has no place in Britains universities. The current situation is the result of a government that has shamelessly linked access targets to university funding in an attempt to cover up its own incompetant handiling of the state school system.
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    (Original post by Hades)
    What I meant to illustrate with that point was the fact that in general, people have more respect for degree holders than for those who learnt skills on the job. I mean, lets just pretend this Thatcher had a degree of some sort. You'd be more likely to converse with him about current affairs than whether or not he likes his tea with sugar, wouldn't you?
    You'd be more likely to regard him as somebody you can have a worthwhile conversation with, rather than as a means to an end!
    I didn't think this thatcher analogy would carry on..! When I was working in my gap year only 1 or 2 out of the other 30 people I worked with had a degree - this didn't mean that I only talked to those with degrees about current affairs but everyone. And at uni I work at the bar, so I get to meet different people from outside the uni involved in the bar - the guys making deliveries etc - I don't treat them any different or refuse to work with them just because I'm studying for a degree.. By the same token I know people with degrees who I don't have respect for - so it's a two-way thing. You also assume that all people going to uni have an interest in current affairs and those that don't are ignorant/ uninterested - I know plenty of people at uni who don't give a hoot about current affairs and plenty of people who are working instead of going to uni who do.

    (Original post by Hades)
    The degree I have applied for is also partly for knowledge in itself, though it also has some vocational value to me as I plan to one day work for the UN (Politics).
    Anyway, University is about far more than bits of paper- as I mentioned before, degree holders command respect, and in addition to this, I think people feel more secure about their employment prospects. Also, these days, you are more likely to enter at a 'higher level' position if you hold a degree even in sectors where on-the-job training is the norm, e.g. Marketing.
    I'm glad you say Uni is more than about pieces of paper - at least we agree on that. You say degree holders command more respect - I say (and said earlier that) it shouldn't be like that. I don't expect people to treat me with respect because of a degree - I expect them to treat me with respect because "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

    (Original post by Hades)
    Well that's a bit shallow, isn't it? You are referring to specific material, when it is the way the student engages with it that is important. Subjects like Philosophy for example, may be viewed by some as a discipline with useless content- which is a fair enough point, though I cannot disagree more strongly. However, what you overlook is the generic skills that are gained through studying the subject- skills of analysis, logic, and the ability to grasp abstract concepts. Philosophy is simply the medium through which this is gained- same with your example, David Beckham is merely an enjoyable medium through which valuable skills can be learnt!
    We also agree about Philosophy! Generic skills are vital - essay writing etc, I agree. And surfing and Beckahm etc may be fun but in my mind are obsolete as courses.
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    (Original post by OldBailey)
    I get to meet different people from outside the uni involved in the bar - the guys making deliveries etc - I don't treat them any different or refuse to work with them just because I'm studying for a degree
    That's my attitude as well! I'm not saying that -I- don't respect people who are without degrees; I'm saying this is the general attitude. I'm not as snobbish and narrow minded as that, I assumed you were, that is why we are having this debate- I suppose I assumed a little too much

    (Original post by OldBailey)
    You say degree holders command more respect - I say (and said earlier that) it shouldn't be like that.
    I agree. But sadly that is the way things are. In general, I mean.

    (Original post by OldBailey)
    "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
    How can you be so cheesy!


    (Original post by OldBailey)
    We also agree about Philosophy! Generic skills are vital - essay writing etc, I agree. And surfing and Beckahm etc may be fun but in my mind are obsolete as courses.
    That's what I mean though- these seemingly 'micky mouse' courses are a way in which students can gain transferable skills. They are a more accessible medium than most, but still useful!

    Anyway, I think we both share the same sorts of opinions here, I think I just misunderstood you. I can see the logic in what you are saying about not everybody needing to go to university, you make a fair point. Honestly, I was just annoyed because I thought you were being snobbish about that whole 'pointless subjects' thing, like, somebody with a degree in Sociology is somehow worth less than somebody with a degree in Law. But I see where you're coming from now.
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    Cool.. Glad we see where the other is coming from.

    I quite enjoyed that little convo!

    And I had to quote from the UDHR after you mentioned the UN! I'm also looking at something along those lines - perhaps in the FCO though.
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    (Original post by OldBailey)
    Cool.. Glad we see where the other is coming from I quite enjoyed that little convo!
    Same, been a while since I had a decent debate!

    (Original post by OldBailey)
    And I had to quote from the UDHR after you mentioned the UN! I'm also looking at something along those lines - perhaps in the FCO though.
    Forgive my ignorance, but what are they? UDHR and FCO?
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    UDHR = Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
    FCO = Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

    Have you done anything about finding out about jobs etc in the UN? I meant to apply for this under-graduate attachment programme with FCO but didn't get the form in on time.. Oops.
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    Hey!

    Sorry to butt in but is Edinburgh considered an Elitist university?
    I've heard its known for a high proportion of "rahs" so is that the same kinda thing???

    Thanks!
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    (Original post by KaiserSoze)
    I can understand why some universities might think its better to give an offer to a state school pupil who got BCC (or similar) compared to a private school pupil who may have got BBB, as private schools tend to pull middle ability students up. However it is outrageous that places such as Bristol are giving out ABB offers while rejecting students with 4 A's, these grades are as good as is feasibly possible: what more can the students do? The top students will always do well and 'positive' discrimination of this type has no place in Britains universities. The current situation is the result of a government that has shamelessly linked access targets to university funding in an attempt to cover up its own incompetant handiling of the state school system.
    I think that is very true. Private schools are good for rasing the attainment of the 'average student' by preparing them just for the exam better than perhaps some state schools do. To get AAA in 3 good academic subjects however requires an extremely intelligent person - no matter what school they go to. In my experience (dont know if this is true or not) private schools also seem to give out higher predicted grades. I go to a state school and my maths teacher wouldn't predict me an A for maths because she wasn't "apsolutly sure" that I would get an A. People who I have spoken to from private schools seem to have less trouble in getting higher predicted grades. Only my subjective opinion i have reached from talking to one of two people and from personal experience though....
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    (Original post by OldBailey)
    UDHR = Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
    FCO = Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

    Have you done anything about finding out about jobs etc in the UN? I meant to apply for this under-graduate attachment programme with FCO but didn't get the form in on time.. Oops.
    A bit, yeah. Apparently it's disgustingly hard !
    We'd need to sit these superhard examinations, apparently pitched at Masters or PhD level (I'd probably want to do a Masters in International Relations or something), followed by some gruelling interview. In addition to this, we need to know at least ONE other language and be fluent in this (I plan to learn Arabic and Japanese. They sound nice, have beautiful scripts, and aren't as commonly known as French for example ), and yeah, that is pretty much it. It's going to be challenging but obviously it's all worth it, and even if I don't manage to get a place in the UN, there are other worthwhile international organisations of this sort that I wouldn't mind joining e.g. Amnesty
    And don't worry about not getting the form in on time this year, you've got next year right?
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    (Original post by CatWoman)
    Hey!

    Sorry to butt in but is Edinburgh considered an Elitist university?
    I've heard its known for a high proportion of "rahs" so is that the same kinda thing???

    Thanks!
    Really? I didn't know Edinburgh was full of "rahs" ! I didn't think it was an elitist university either, but it's a very good one
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    Unfortunately this was the only year I could apply.. Ah well.

    I think I'd prob. go for the FCO rather than direct to the UN and then if that leads me into the UN then all well and good. But exams for that are still pretty difficult.

    I've also been toying around with the idea of going into the army for a few years and then coming out and starting on the FCO path, but the idea of a Masters first is quite appealing.. At this rate though I won't start my 'proper' career' until I'm 26/27!
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    (Original post by OldBailey)
    At this rate though I won't start my 'proper' career' until I'm 26/27!
    I know, ugh, same sort of thing has been bothering me! I mean, how long will it take me to learn Arabic and/or Japanese and then get a qualification for it? That, on top of getting a Masters, is going to take a bloody long time. And how on earth am I going to FUND all this?

    The Army sounds like a very interesting idea! But at a time like this, would you really want to do it?
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    Although some degrees are obviously stupid like the example of surfing someone said earlier, however, just because a degree is not vocational eg philosophy, it doesnt mean that it's worthwhile.

    It isn't neccessarily the information one learns that is the importance of a degree but the training of the mind, and teaching of skills such as research etc.

    I am sure that most people arn't going into a job directly related to their job. For example, i'm going to do economics, but I doubt I will become an economist!
 
 
 
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