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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Belief in the rule of English law would be a good place to start.
    And there we have it! The admission that the law in Britain, for the benefit also of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland is actually the law of the English imposed on all the other areas.

    So calling the nation British IS a ruse by the ruling English to make us all feel an equal part of a united country.
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    I only caught the end of the show, but there are some interesting points here, and i just have a few questions:

    1) why is it so important for people of different cultures to integrate?
    2) why does it matter that that muslim people consider themselves muslim before british as long as they obey the british law?
    3) why is nationality so important- isn't a country just somewhere you live?
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    1] Because- for a variety of reasons- if they don't integrate they tend to persecute, oppress or kill one another eventually.
    2] because they probably only obey British law because they must and- given the chance- will stop obeying it and even try to overthrow it.
    3] Well, in your case, you love your motherland, even though you don't live there. Presumably you identify that as your nationality, rather than where you happen to live. It might even be easier to identify with somewhere you don't live, but it is probably not good for you. I am from an Irish ancestry, long resident in Scotland, and many of my family lived or tried to live in a fantasy Ireland that bore no resemblance to the real Ireland or the Scotland they lived in. In the meantime, because you do not identify with it, you do not feel obliged to try to make the country you do live in a better place to live in or even stop it becoming a worse place to live in.
    There is the assumption that someone who regards a country as just somewhere you live will not consider the interests of that country and its inhabitants as important and will quite possibly act against them.

    Personally, I think the first has been true historically, though it may become less so, as the world is more accessible and peoples' ideas of normality becomes- mainly- less exclusive.
    In the case of the second, many muslims don't actually have more than a very hazy idea of what sharia law is and their support is more rhetorical than actual.
    In the third, people become attached to or concerned with the place they live and the people they see every day, regardless of their intentions- unless, of course, the people and the place give them very good reason not to do that.

    One fact, which people find it diffeicult to accept, though they use it for their own purposes regularly, is that the world is, practically speaking, very small nowadays. It's thought that there may be anything up to five million British citizens abroad, for long or short periods, at any given moment. Given the ease of travel and settlement in Europe, more and more people do think of themselves as European in a way they didn't. Perhaps nationality may become like attachment to a football team- absurd and arbitrary, but no less- or even more- fanatical for all that.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    And there we have it! The admission that the law in Britain, for the benefit also of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland is actually the law of the English imposed on all the other areas.

    So calling the nation British IS a ruse by the ruling English to make us all feel an equal part of a united country.
    Considering that the most senior members of the cabinet are Scottish and that the royal family is of German-Scottish descent the term "the ruling English" is inappropriate. In fact, Scottish and Irish law both exost separately. Any resemblance with English law may be: coincidence or evidence that they are pretty sensible laws. does the fact that English law has laws against murder ands every other law forbids murder mean that English law is imposed on the world?
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Considering that the most senior members of the cabinet are Scottish and that the royal family is of German-Scottish descent the term "the ruling English" is inappropriate. In fact, Scottish and Irish law both exost separately. Any resemblance with English law may be: coincidence or evidence that they are pretty sensible laws. does the fact that English law has laws against murder ands every other law forbids murder mean that English law is imposed on the world?
    Read this Vienna - according to Weejimmie, the term 'English law' when referring to Britain is incorrect.
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Well, in your case, you love your motherland, even though you don't live there. Presumably you identify that as your nationality, rather than where you happen to live. It might even be easier to identify with somewhere you don't live, but it is probably not good for you. I am from an Irish ancestry, long resident in Scotland, and many of my family lived or tried to live in a fantasy Ireland that bore no resemblance to the real Ireland or the Scotland they lived in. In the meantime, because you do not identify with it, you do not feel obliged to try to make the country you do live in a better place to live in or even stop it becoming a worse place to live in.
    There is the assumption that someone who regards a country as just somewhere you live will not consider the interests of that country and its inhabitants as important and will quite possibly act against them.
    Well, yes I DO love my home country, no specifically because of it's merits but because of my earliest memories and it's where the majority of my family happen to be. but I don't think there's anything dangerous about the fact I don't consider myself british, frankly I'm grateful to be alive and I'm quite grateful to have been accepted in britain, I may moan about this country but I like to think that denotes my affection. And at the end of the day i don't primarily identify myself by my nationality anyway. i identify my self by my ideals by my position in my family and as myself personally before i even begin to consider nationality, is that wrong?

    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    1] Because- for a variety of reasons- if they don't integrate they tend to persecute, oppress or kill one another eventually.
    But a lot of people here seem to think this is the fault of the immigrants, which I don't understand, how is not drinking alcohol and dressing differently harmful to society?

    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    One fact, which people find it diffeicult to accept, though they use it for their own purposes regularly, is that the world is, practically speaking, very small nowadays. It's thought that there may be anything up to five million British citizens abroad, for long or short periods, at any given moment. Given the ease of travel and settlement in Europe, more and more people do think of themselves as European in a way they didn't. Perhaps nationality may become like attachment to a football team- absurd and arbitrary, but no less- or even more- fanatical for all that.
    I thought nationality was already like that.
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    (Original post by ayaan)
    I may moan about this country but I like to think that denotes my affection.
    Well, that's a characteristically English- if not british- trait.
    And at the end of the day i don't primarily identify myself by my nationality anyway. i identify my self by my ideals by my position in my family and as myself personally before i even begin to consider nationality, is that wrong?
    Most people work as you do, from the small to the general. Historically, most people have fitted and have been able to fit all of those concepts and loyalties within the same country though.


    But a lot of people here seem to think this is the fault of the immigrants, which I don't understand, how is not drinking alcohol and dressing differently harmful to society?
    Merely being different has often been thought of as a sign of danger or hostility. It suggests that people are deliberately choosing not to associate with or think themselves superior to others. There has long been hostility to immgrants: as I keep telling people, read Defoe's The True Born Briton. Jews and later muslims have the further complication that they are noticeably isolated with very different habits. The beliefs that some- many, i think- muslims have about the need for muslim domination and the nrhetoric and actions these inspire are a further reason. It is not a matter of not drinking alcohol: that and other muslim dietary orders mean that muslims and nonmuslims are going to find it difficult to socialise with one another.


    I thought nationality was already like that.
    Hardly: as you say, your attachment to your home country is an attachment to specific memories [or possibly fantasies by now]. Its worth reading Orwell's Notes on nationalism and some of his other essays for ideas about patriotism and nationalism. I might add, that one of the virtues of England and Britain is that it is a place where people choose to live without needing atavistic patriotism to make them want to do so. What begins as convenience can end as a real and better kind of patriotism.
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    <<The comfortable middle ground is eroding as Muslims are asked to either accept the 'war on terror' and deny their heritage or become radicalised and condemned as 'terrorists'.>>

    which reads as, Muslims are asked to denounce and oppose terrorism and reject their heritage...

    How thoroughly testing for them.
    Why do you so obviously twist things? It's not sublte at all. I condemn terrorism, but I'm not going to side with the war on terror. Which killes more? Neo-con capitalism or fundamentalist Islam? If I had to choose one, I know which I'd choose and it wouldn't be the first one.
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Well, that's a characteristically English- if not british- trait. Most people work as you do, from the small to the general. Historically, most people have fitted and have been able to fit all of those concepts and loyalties within the same country though.
    But some people on this thread seem to think that identifying yourself primarily by anything other than nationality is inherently wrong. What is a country? at the end of the day it's just a few lines on a map, why is it so importance to show allegiance to this concept?

    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Merely being different has often been thought of as a sign of danger or hostility. It suggests that people are deliberately choosing not to associate with or think themselves superior to others. There has long been hostility to immgrants: as I keep telling people, read Defoe's The True Born Briton. Jews and later muslims have the further complication that they are noticeably isolated with very different habits.
    I don't think I'm superor because I don't drink alcohol, I just think it's better to not drink than drink exessively (which is seems to be acceptable and evenh normal in British culture).


    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Hardly: as you say, your attachment to your home country is an attachment to specific memories [or possibly fantasies by now]. Its worth reading Orwell's Notes on nationalism and some of his other essays for ideas about patriotism and nationalism. I might add, that one of the virtues of England and Britain is that it is a place where people choose to live without needing atavistic patriotism to make them want to do so. What begins as convenience can end as a real and better kind of patriotism.
    What I meant was I wouldn't say I'm patriotic, I'm attatched to Somalia as a place not really as a nation, if that makes sense.
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    (Original post by juueru_chou)
    But surely you are not racist normally, so why would that be a problem, unless in fact you recognise that you are?
    I am not racist normally and I never said I was. All I said was that if I did anything racist in the police then I should get sacked.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Read this Vienna - according to Weejimmie, the term 'English law' when referring to Britain is incorrect.
    I respect Weejimmies opinion, it doesnt really detract from the point. Are you a supporter of the Palestinian Authority btw?
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    That isn't a Palestinian flag. Where is it from?
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    If you hold your cursor above the flag, you'll get its name. The flag is of the Sudan.
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Why do you so obviously twist things? It's not sublte at all. I condemn terrorism, but I'm not going to side with the war on terror. Which killes more? Neo-con capitalism or fundamentalist Islam? If I had to choose one, I know which I'd choose and it wouldn't be the first one.
    Ok I really shouldnt be here ... but oh well ... ONE post wont kill me...

    First of all - you arent making a valid comparison. You are falling into the Nirvana fallacy for one side of it. Does capitalism result in some death and poverty? Yes of course. However - until someone comes up with a system that can be observed to be practical and empirically verified as being preferable in the long run for the human race, it is the best choice possible.

    Fundamentalism of any religion is generally NOT the best thing for mankind in the long run. Most CERTAINLY, violent forms of it are not. As such, you can quite happily accept capitalism and yet condemn the former.

    Is there a viable and preferable alternative to capitalism (in a western and SOMEWHAT tempered form)? - No

    Is there a viable and preferable alternative to self righteous, violent, and thoroughouly reprehensible forms of Islam and other religions? - Of course.
 
 
 
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