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Discrimination against Middle Class students??????? watch

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    (Original post by JonD)
    Sorry to bring up old aspects, but today I was speaking to a teacher who claimed that out of the 50 straight-A students from his rural North Yorkshire state school (i.e. lower middle class) not a single one was accepted into Oxford or Cambridge. It used to range between 5 and 10, up until a few years ago. Since several other people mentioned similar things happening all over similar colleges all over the country, I'm now close to bieng convinced there really is something odd going on here, whereas before I just thought people were bieng paranoid.
    Many students are being encouraged to apply to Oxbridge so the chances of getting an acceptance are obviously more limited than formerly.

    Oxbridge used to be 'self-selecting' inasmuch as those who had the highest predicted grades, the extensive extra-curricular activities, were head boy/girl or had grade 8 piano pass were the only ones who put themselves forward. With encouragement by way of 'Special Access' schemes, Summer schools and research-backed indicators that many more students had the potential to achieve better class of degree - the ratio of applicants to places has dramatically increased. Students are now realising that there is no reason not to apply - aim higher!
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    (Original post by Lozza)
    i posted a reply on the other thread about cambridge and my opinion on the admissions. i can't be bothered to retype it or copy and paste but basically i said that a levels were just an indicator of potential and your dos who interviews you will know whether you have potential to do well at cambridge or not.
    Absolutely! And remember also that at Cambridge colleges (in particular Trinity) offers are made to more students than places available - despite admissions tutors recognising potential the fact remains that approximately one third of offers will not realise acceptances come results day because grade predictors are just that! Outcome can vary from predictions.
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    (Original post by Lozza)

    fyi i didn't go to a private school. i just think the best people should get in.
    And therein lies the crux of disagreement! Who are the best to judge is who the best?

    Is it the admissions tutors or the applicant themself?
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    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    I was being general. Good for YOU, but most people are subconsciously money- minded, and go to uni knowing they have a better chance of earning much more money than people who don't. The government is acting on the majority's interests, you know they cannot cater for each persons individual means.For everyone in your situation, there are 20 post grads who are doing well.
    So what you are saying is that I, someone who earns very little and is currently doing research of great benefit to society, should be penalised financially, because my peers have good jobs? £15,000 is a hell of a big debt when it is more than you earn in a year. Of course this system is much fairer now with graduates only paying after the earn above a certain amount (although that amount is too low).

    Who said they should be taxed for being intelligent? I dont want to get into a debate about what taxes are for, and whether they are fair. But people should pay their way, i'll stand by that in particular.You say why should they pay, i say why should other people?Yes, these people will be a benefit to society one day (more often than not), but they will take more wages than other people (""").
    They are being taxed for being intelligent. Graduates already are some of the most taxed individuals in the country, why put more financial burden on these people? If you earn more wages then you are already contributing more income tax, it's as simple as that.

    Higher Education should be free at point of access - this will make getting students from poor backgrounds more likely to apply to university - surely that is what we want?
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    You still get cr*p teachers in private and grammar schools. Theres nothing stopping a "working class" student from teaching themselves from a book.
    Isn't it the case the teachers don't have to be qualified in the same way in the private sector as they do to work in the state sector.
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    (Original post by rachaelmarie)
    Isn't it the case the teachers don't have to be qualified in the same way in the private sector as they do to work in the state sector.
    Yes, one only has to be a QT to teach in the state sector.
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    (Original post by Lord Waddell)
    Nosos' statement was actually about middle class students, whether from comprehensives or private schools being discriminated against, not about private school students.
    And how exactly do universities distinguish between the classes.... by what type of school they go to. The whole argument is based around the idea that publicly educated children are losing places to comprehensive kids, due to what is called positive discrimination.
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    (Original post by ChemistBoy)
    So what you are saying is that I, someone who earns very little and is currently doing research of great benefit to society, should be penalised financially, because my peers have good jobs? £15,000 is a hell of a big debt when it is more than you earn in a year. Of course this system is much fairer now with graduates only paying after the earn above a certain amount (although that amount is too low).



    They are being taxed for being intelligent. Graduates already are some of the most taxed individuals in the country, why put more financial burden on these people? If you earn more wages then you are already contributing more income tax, it's as simple as that.

    Higher Education should be free at point of access - this will make getting students from poor backgrounds more likely to apply to university - surely that is what we want?
    No i am not saying you should. You are paying for doing your degree. i was merely stating that the stats say that post grads earn more later. This isnt the reason govts give for making people pay for uni, this is my way of saying that it is fair. Yes, not for everyone, but for most. Its unfortunate you havent got a good job yet, but i expect you will, and good luck to you.
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    (Original post by melbourne)
    I hate to say this but you do talk some nonsense....

    I live with my mother alone and she does not earn mega-money

    I worked hard at primary school and i therefore got into a grammar which gave me a good start for life.

    I have currently got 2 A grades at A Level and hope to have 5 by the end of the summer. This i achieved through an academic scholarship at a private college.

    I work at tescos as a trolley boy and that earns me 6 pounds an hour. I mostly use this money to by myself books for my a level studies.

    Now what is stopping the rest of the "working class" from copying me?!

    And yes i am a tory because i believe you work hard to get what you want in life- not to get pregnant at 16, have 3 different children with 3 different fathers and vote labour at the general election simply because you know they'll support people on benefit!

    You say that identical grades achieved by a working class pupil and a wealthier family-pupil means the working class pupil worked harder.................. not necessarily.

    You still get cr*p teachers in private and grammar schools. Theres nothing stopping a "working class" student from teaching themselves from a book.
    *sigh* I wish people would stop giving their little life examples of how my theory doesnt fit- i am talking in general terms! Well done to you. I, like you am expected to get top grades. I, like you, come from a working class background, though we are more comfortable now than ever. My mother, like yours, has middle- class values when it comes to how importan education is. I am not assuming that everyone who is working class doesnt do well in school, i am talking on behalf of all the children who come fron the typical, maybe stereotypical, w.class family, where school and education isnt important. Of course there are many w.class families out there who work hard- its in the name. Of course there are many w.class families who push their children to do well at school. But then there are many thousands more who dont. And what you say about the whole pregnant thing is frankly pathetic. I see you are a tory from your attitude towards other people, who you consider yourself to be above. That is what the whole tory aura is about. It isnt necessarily about money, and the accumulation of wealth (though this interests them greatly), it is also about the way they sneer at others. Has anyone else ever noticed you can spot a conservative a mile off- they have sneery, creep-like, pompous, buffoon- type faces that you could just slap. Labour supporters believe in hard work- the WORKING classes are their main supporters. If i was you, id read around a bit more, do a bit of observation, and then maybe you will be able to distinguish between the WORKING class, and the UNDERCLASS, which is who i presume you are talking about. And i suppose you would scrap benefits, and leave people who cannot cope alone to just rot.Take a look at the establishment and what it has caused, rather than blaming individual groups in society.
    And it isnt about the teachers, necessarily. Its about the work ethic of the person, and the family they are in. Teachers regurgitate the info, then what you do with that depends on who you are. W. class kids who are not interested in education could go to any school, but would still do ***** if they didnt have the ethic to work, with parental support.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    And therein lies the crux of disagreement! Who are the best to judge is who the best?

    Is it the admissions tutors or the applicant themself?
    the admissions tutor. obviously the applicant thinks i'm the best. woo i'm the best lol. nah i trust the admissions tutor. i think some people who didn't get in are just bitter and want to blame something else. a lot of excellent people can't get in, but trust me, cam isn't for everyone.
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    (Original post by melbourne)
    I hate to say this but you do talk some nonsense....

    I live with my mother alone and she does not earn mega-money

    I worked hard at primary school and i therefore got into a grammar which gave me a good start for life.

    I have currently got 2 A grades at A Level and hope to have 5 by the end of the summer. This i achieved through an academic scholarship at a private college.

    I work at tescos as a trolley boy and that earns me 6 pounds an hour. I mostly use this money to by myself books for my a level studies.

    Now what is stopping the rest of the "working class" from copying me?!

    And yes i am a tory because i believe you work hard to get what you want in life- not to get pregnant at 16, have 3 different children with 3 different fathers and vote labour at the general election simply because you know they'll support people on benefit!

    You say that identical grades achieved by a working class pupil and a wealthier family-pupil means the working class pupil worked harder.................. not necessarily.

    You still get cr*p teachers in private and grammar schools. Theres nothing stopping a "working class" student from teaching themselves from a book.

    well said, well said.
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    (Original post by esx77)
    It is right for uni's to give places to poor students who went to poorly performing schools at the expense off middle class students who went to good schools. Because students at poor schools face such an uphill struggle to acheive the grades they have whereas middle class students have a relative smooth struggle. This has GOT TO BE AN ISSUE when admissions tutors select between applicants from different backgrounds.

    Good teachers are attracted to good schools, bad teachers have to end up somewhere - and guess where!!
    so your grade might not matter then?

    nevermind, you got an A. you learned the material and did the work to get the results but you know what? screw you. we've giving your place to someone who has lower grades because they are obviously the better candidate. does anyone else find what esx77 has said to be verging on lunacy?

    it should ALWAYS be about the quality and ability of the applicant, not where they came from.

    at the end of the day, someone whos a star student and has actually learnt and achieved all that was expected might get shafted in that sort of system.

    yes the person who got the wrong end of the stick by going to the crap school has lost out but thats life. if the person is able and determined, they will achieve. regardless of who is teaching them. some people might have to work harder for the results and might end up not getting the same opportunity, but again thats life. its not fair and never will be.

    no doubt you'll be recommending we give students from "disadvantaged backgrounds" a 20 mark head start on the exams soon?

    completely stupid.
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    (Original post by rachaelmarie)
    Isn't it the case the teachers don't have to be qualified in the same way in the private sector as they do to work in the state sector.
    even if thats true, is that the problem of those in the private sector? no.
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    And anyway, how on earth will we be able to quantify such things? Will it become a 'points system' like the immigration system of many countries like Australia etc where you get 2 points if your teacher talked about her sex life instead of geography??
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    how on earth can you quantify this mysterious 'academic potential' that people are arguing decisions should be based on (and we still have no examples of how to find it) especcially in a university system which is doing fewer and fewer interviews. How can someone you have never met magically know your academic potential based on grades and your section 10 blurb. Grades are solid. Grades are quantifiable. And grades show your knowledge and ability, this should be what people are accepted to uni on, not some wishe washy liberal crap about how the poor little working classes go to worse schools. If they have the drive they will suceed in exams, thats all there is to it.
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    (Original post by divine_aphrael)
    how on earth can you quantify this mysterious 'academic potential' that people are arguing decisions should be based on (and we still have no examples of how to find it) especcially in a university system which is doing fewer and fewer interviews. How can someone you have never met magically know your academic potential based on grades and your section 10 blurb. Grades are solid. Grades are quantifiable. And grades show your knowledge and ability, this should be what people are accepted to uni on, not some wishe washy liberal crap about how the poor little working classes go to worse schools. If they have the drive they will suceed in exams, thats all there is to it.
    exactly.
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    I don't know if this has already been said, but there is logic behind the decisions of some institutions to discriminate against students from fee-paying schools, and these students are generally middle-class.

    Here's the reason: Fee-paying schools give extensive help to their students in getting those As at A level, including giving handouts and all the right books, at least compared to state schools. Now, at Uni, it's very different. You'll be expected to go out and do your own research for almost everything, so fee-paying students are more likely to have problems coping because they're not as used to this system as state-schoolers.
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    does the generalising not stop at all??
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    I go to a state school in a middle clas/upper midle class area and many people got into Oxbridge.

    I don't believe in choosing working class students over middle class students, but what we had before was middle class students being chosen OVER working class student. Maybe some of the reductions in entry levels for MC students is simply the result of this imbalance being rectified.
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    (Original post by Will)
    I don't know if this has already been said, but there is logic behind the decisions of some institutions to discriminate against students from fee-paying schools, and these students are generally middle-class.

    Here's the reason: Fee-paying schools give extensive help to their students in getting those As at A level, including giving handouts and all the right books, at least compared to state schools. Now, at Uni, it's very different. You'll be expected to go out and do your own research for almost everything, so fee-paying students are more likely to have problems coping because they're not as used to this system as state-schoolers.
    and generally i'd say someone with AAA, deserves the spot more than someone with CCC for example...

    i can only imagine what would occur if someone from a terrible stereotyped inner city dungeon of a school were to get AAA. might as well give them the degree outright as a prize. :rolleyes:
 
 
 
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