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    What do you reckon?

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    (Original post by Tek)
    http://www26.brinkster.com/boltfish/protest.htm

    What do you reckon?
    the church is a place where people of a shared faith can worship together... it should not be abolished at all, it's a basic breach of human rights.

    lou xxx
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    The bigoted Church of England and why it must be disestablished

    A paper by Mischa Ben Woolf (London, revised 12th December 2003)


    Not only is the Church of England an embarrassing anachronism, but its role as the state’s religion has become offensive to a great many people. There is simply one question here; why should this institution hold special privileges in a country where Christians are few in number, Protestants even fewer, believers not necessarily Christian, and a good many secular? Fundamentally speaking, it is offensive to our many faiths that they are somehow seen as ‘inferior’ to the established religion. In such a multicultural society, we should be drawing communities together, not isolating them.

    I propose that it is simply racist that one religion should be given special privileges over other religions. In order to stamp out this racism, we should disestablish the Church and end its special privileges.

    Historically Speaking

    Some may argue that the Historical element is important when justifying the existence of the Church of England. Unfortunately, this argument does not hold much water. We are Pagan in origin and it was the Christians who displaced our Pagan origins. If anything, having a Pagan National Religion would be historically more accurate than a Christian one. Moreover, our ‘so called’ Christian heritage is nothing to be proud of because it is simply founded on racism. As Jesus says of the Jews in Matthew 12:34: “they are a brood of vipers and children of the devil”. Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, said of the Jews:

    Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self Notice: Forum has automatically removed spam. glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them.

    Is this anti Semitism something of which we should be proud? Are hundreds of years of Church sponsored pogroms really something of which we should be proud?

    Besides, just because our nation has a history of something does not mean that it is morally acceptable. Three hundred years ago, the slave trade was seen as being morally acceptable; indeed, one could say that we have a history of it. So should we continue its practice, just because it is etched in our nation’s history?

    Politically Speaking

    Politically speaking, the Church has too often become involved in national issues. Gay rights and women’s rights are just two examples of where the Church has tried to wield its power to the detriment of human rights. Surely this matter is a secular one? After all, it affects all British citizens, not just our Christian ones. Is it morally right for this anachronistic organisation to be allowed to interfere with our lives? The politics and issues of this country are secular ones and because they are applicable to a large number of faiths the Church should not have any say in this whatsoever.

    My Human Rights

    Did you know that it is against the law to ridicule Protestantism? That blasphemy is still a crime? Well, it is, and in this public document, I shall now blaspheme:

    Protestantism is a load of rubbish. It’s morally wrong, historically racist, and has no real foundations whatsoever. This nonsense about God is just stupid. He doesn’t exist at all! In fact, it sounds to me ike someone found a two thousand year old bedtime story and started worshipping it.

    So what are you going to do? Arrest me?

    Fortunately, the European Union has forced the 1998 Human Rights Act upon Britain, under which we now have free speech. So, unless it is libellous (and I’d like to see someone conclusively prove that the Bible is not a two thousand year old bedtime story), the sensible European Court of Human Rights will protect me. The Law Commission has twice called for the removal of this law, yet it has not been removed because of Christian intervention. This only demonstrates that the Church is intent on preserving its privileged position to the fundamental detriment of human rights.

    But in fact, the Church of England is actually exempt from certain aspects of the Human Rights Bill. So in what way is it fair that a group of morons who worship a two thousand year old Hebrew text have a veto when it comes to my human rights? I would much rather trust the European Court of Human Rights, the realisation of centuries of democracy and equality, than this immoral institution which has no relevance to my life whatsoever.

    Many people have in fact suggested that this blasphemy rule be expanded to include other religions. I disagree. To do so would be to preclude any atheists from criticising religions, and it is not our right to restrict their human rights either.

    Racism

    Furthermore, the Church of England still insists on preserving fundamentally racist laws. For example, laws still exist which prohibit a Catholic from marrying the Head of State or from becoming Prime Minister. If this is not an example of institutional racism then I don’t know what is.

    Their attitude towards homosexuals is frankly disgusting. There is nothing wrong with being gay whatsoever (as has been generally accepted by most morally righteous people in our tolerant society), yet this homophobic attitude is actually sponsored by our state religion. Quite how anyone in this country can think that because a “two thousand year old bedtime story” says it is morally wrong to be homosexual these people must be treated as inferior is beyond me. Quite how a developed country can continue to sponsor these morally wrong ideas is also beyond me. Because it’s frankly racist: simply racist.

    Conclusion

    By leaving the issue of religion to a private matter for individuals, the disestablishment of the Church would expand our human rights. We would be entitled to complete freedom of religion, with each one seen as being equal to the next. The ending of the Church of England’s privileged position would mean greater equality and more tolerance for all; both are important factors in the modern day, multicultural society that is Britain. Moreover, the ending of vested interests from the Church in political matters would simply mean a more equal society for all cultures in Britain.

    So I have shown that the Church of England is racist, bigoted and contravenes human rights, and that disestablishment would fundamentally lead to better human rights for everyone in this country.
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    (Original post by lou p lou)
    the church is a place where people of a shared faith can worship together... it should not be abolished at all, it's a basic breach of human rights.

    lou xxx
    Try reading it again and hopefully you'll realise that I'm taking about ENDING IT AS THE STATE'S RELIGION, not abolishing Christianity!
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    The church seems obsolete... it was just a way of humans trying to find meaning in things they can't understand (death, etc.). In today's world of science and technological advances, the answers the church provide don't really seem neccesary. However, some people find comfort in it, and I don't see what harm it's doing, so why should it be destablished?
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    The world has become something of little faith and people resorting to atheism / agonostism so they look really 'hip and cool'. It seems especially noted with science type people who because they can figure out a few forumlas and natural laws think the world has 0 chance of being made by any sort of divine being.

    But on the issue of the church, I don't think we should have it as the 'states' religion specifically, it is just another faith people follow and in my view is completley independant of the state.
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    (Original post by Tek)
    Try reading it again and hopefully you'll realise that I'm taking about ENDING IT AS THE STATE'S RELIGION, not abolishing Christianity!
    nah, i can't be bothered... i only read the first bit, then decided just to go on thread title

    i still think it shouldn't be abolished as the state religion... don't ask my reasons why, but i do think we should have a religion as a country. the church has a lot less of a say than it does, or other religions do, in other countries.

    lou xxx
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    (Original post by Tek)
    Try reading it again and hopefully you'll realise that I'm taking about ENDING IT AS THE STATE'S RELIGION, not abolishing Christianity!
    Christianity is not the state religion: C of E is. I say this as a Christian.
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    (Original post by Tek)
    For example, laws still exist which prohibit a Catholic from marrying the Head of State or from becoming Prime Minister. If this is not an example of institutional racism then I don’t know what is.
    Possibly one involving race? :confused:
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    (Original post by creativesurgeon)
    Christianity is not the state religion: C of E is. I say this as a Christian.
    yeah but C of E is a christian denomination.

    lou xxx
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    Tek - how would you feel about removing Judaism from the state of Israel?

    edders: dont quote long posts
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    Tek - how would you feel about removing Judaism from the state of Israel?
    That's a different situation - everyone in Israel is Jewish (although yes, I accept there is an arab minority) whereas very few people in Britain are C of E.

    --
    The clue is in the name - that person is indeed Jewish.
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    (Original post by Tek)
    That's a different situation - everyone in Israel is Jewish (although yes, I accept there is an arab minority) whereas very few people in Britain are C of E.

    --
    The clue is in the name - that person is indeed Jewish.
    Then I won't give you an opinion on it as the suggestion, and your question are biased.
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    Then I won't give you an opinion on it as the suggestion, and your question are biased.
    Could you explain that?
    One of the points of that essay is that the C of E doesn't represent the majority of Britain any more (as illustrated by people like me).
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    Actually atheism is such are not to "look hip and cool", they are to free the mind of the mental abuse religion has placed on people, distoring reality. Using people's ability to imagine the worst, and also the best, and offering pain if u don't follow (the church also asks for money too; making it a cult-like business using mind-control as slavery), but great and many rewards if u do. Of course, none the which anyone can experience in life. Playing off the fear of death, the unknown, they r able to offer truth in a seemingly unprovable manner, using fear as the basis of control, and molding society into a state of sheer chaos.

    People don't understand why problems exist, why this happens, why it doesn't. Using narcissistic maneuvers of manipulation, u sound crazy to point out the obvious flaws and seemingly evil attempts, but without under the control of this controlling influence, he who rebels and pursues his own individuality and happiness is seen as a threat, told he is crazy, and suffers deep anguish.

    Using the basis of "love" as what the church advocates, it gets away with the robbery it places on people's own free-will, the judgemental and hating nature, the rejection and unacceptance. Anyone who challenges the paradoxical and ignorant beliefs and denials of such widely apparent slavery is looked at as crazy, because people refuse to believe what they can't see, only what they're told to see, told to imagine...and they support it because they are told if they doubt their curiousity and pursuit of truth and the fundamental humane experience of happiness through exploration, whether it be through action, thinking, imagining, feeling, or other sensations, they will suffer some wrath of a seemingly ungraceful and unforgiving God WHO, by the way, goes by the name of "love, grace, and forgiveness".

    Religion is total crap because it denies other truth, other possibility. What people fail to see is that every Christian, every man in the world, even priest, monk, and priestess doubts their own beliefs, doubts God exists, doubts what happens after death, doubts their own worth, and doubts all happiness. When you spend a lifetime not exploring your own beliefs to find what is clearest and fits you best, you lose all individuality, and when you lose individuality, you are giving your ownership to someone else, because without individuality, you cannot exist without having somebody else's.
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    (Original post by Tek)
    Could you explain that?
    One of the points of that essay is that the C of E doesn't represent the majority of Britain any more (as illustrated by people like me).
    According to the last census over 70% of people stated they were CofE!
    I find it worrying that some many of the Jewish faith use any opportunity to have a poke at the Christian faith. You know, it says that at the last coming of Christ, even Jews will be converted.
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    In fact, I've recently decided to pursue the ban on religion and its use of fear and ignorance as form of slavery, as well as abuse in America.

    Instead, pursue all beliefs alike, all aspects of life, curiousty, doubt, hope, love, hate, and use an alternate nationally funded education (available to everyone, everywhere, and free of charge--supported by taxes) as a means to exploring ur own individuality, instead of a means to limit and control it. No man thinks exactly alike, it is about time people begin to recognize this, and as it is the first amendment that gives us the freedom of speech and other forms of expression, it would be only denyingly ignorant to not believe religion isn't abuse.
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    (Original post by caz)
    In fact, I've recently decided to pursue the ban on religion and its use of fear and ignorance as form of slavery, as well as abuse in America.

    Instead, pursue all beliefs alike, all aspects of life, curiousty, doubt, hope, love, hate, and use an alternate nationally funded education (available to everyone, everywhere, and free of charge--supported by taxes) as a means to exploring ur own individuality, instead of a means to limit and control it. No man thinks exactly alike, it is about time people begin to recognize this, and as it is the first amendment that gives us the freedom of speech and other forms of expression, it would be only denyingly ignorant to not believe religion isn't abuse.
    I respect you as a fellow human being but IMHO what you've just said is a load of nonsense!
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    I respect you as a fellow human being but IMHO what you've just said is a load of nonsense!
    I spent the time to explain myself, at least have the decency to explain yourself. IMHO your HO is no good
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    According to the last census over 70% of people stated they were CofE!
    I find it worrying that some many of the Jewish faith use any opportunity to have a poke at the Christian faith. You know, it says that at the last coming of Christ, even Jews will be converted.
    How many of that 70% go to Church every week?

    And you say that we Jews use any excuse to 'have a poke' at Christians!!!!!!!!! What the f**k have Christians been doing to Jews for centuries? Pogroms, murders, boycotts, rape, and THE HOLOCAUST. So don't you dare bring that up. Since when was this a Jewish attack on Christians anyway? This is about a real world, secular issue! The Jews aren't trying to disestablish the Church just so that we can install Michael Howard as Head of the Jewish Church!!

    Now for god's sake stfu you arrogant idiot.
 
 
 
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