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    (Original post by JSM)
    Sorry layla he does actually know about Christina denominations, Tek is just attention seeking (I love you really mouse) and not very good at putting sentances together very well. It is just a rant against the christian religion as opposed to hte church.
    I'm not sure he does know actually (its lala not layla btw) since thinking there is one monolithic Christian church is quite a big mistake, but if he does have any idea what he's talking about he hides it well. That its a rant you wont find me arguing with, which explains why some of what he's written isnt very well put or clear, but it also exposes some pretty major gaps in his knowledge, which are obviously going to be exposed when he attempts to base an argument around them.
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    (Original post by lala)
    I'm not sure he does know actually (its lala not layla btw) since thinking there is one monolithic Christian church is quite a big mistake, but if he does have any idea what he's talking about he hides it well. That its a rant you wont find me arguing with, which explains why some of what he's written isnt very well put or clear, but it also exposes some pretty major gaps in his knowledge, which are obviously going to be exposed when he attempts to base an argument around them.
    Well he does know, bcos he is my m8 and he is not stupid and we are studying the reformation in History, but i think it is easier to argue if Christians are lumped under a heading. I mean thats what happens with Jews and Muslims (Shiites,etc.) and Buddhists.
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    I resent the way the 'State religion' is forced upon us from early childhood.

    I am referring to education and religion.

    From the start, when we begin at infant school and on throughout primary school we are made to sit through countless religious (Christian) assemblies. I believe it is infact a law supposedly, that schools should host 1/2 (?) of these gatherings a week.
    I do not appreciate having been forced to sit there and sing religious hymns in worship to Jesus and God. If one wants to partake in such activities then they can chose to attend their local Christian church and do so there at weekly services. It should not be taking place in a non-religion-specific school.
    Also- I believe it is unreasonable that the majority of religious education conducted in British schools is based on Christianity. Their religious traditions and stories are repeatedly hammered into us while other religions go unexplained. Why should we have to endure this monotony?

    In the increasingly mixed society in which we live in I do not think it is acceptable that particular religions are being allowed to have such a large influence on our schooling.
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    (Original post by JSM)
    Well he does know, bcos he is my m8 and he is not stupid and we are studying the reformation in History, but i think it is easier to argue if Christians are lumped under a heading. I mean thats what happens with Jews and Muslims (Shiites,etc.) and Buddhists.
    Nobody said he was stupid. He's posted some stupid comments though. The fact that he's studied the Reformation and yet still thinks it makes sense to talk about a single Christian church (and subsequently defend his argument!) makes me think maybe it hasn't quite sunk in. If he's clinging to a premise thats inherently flawed, and he is, it makes it incredibly difficult for him to construct an argument that actually makes sense- it has been very easy for me to pick holes in his point because he is fundamentally wrong about the structure of the Christian church. If he does actually know that Christianity is made up of many denominations and is on the whole very fragmented, why is he bothering to try and argue otherwise when it just destroys his whole argument?
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    (Original post by lala)
    Nobody said he was stupid. He's posted some stupid comments though. The fact that he's studied the Reformation and yet still thinks it makes sense to talk about a single Christian church (and subsequently defend his argument!) makes me think maybe it hasn't quite sunk in. If he's clinging to a premise thats inherently flawed, and he is, it makes it incredibly difficult for him to construct an argument that actually makes sense- it has been very easy for me to pick holes in his point because he is fundamentally wrong about the structure of the Christian church. If he does actually know that Christianity is made up of many denominations and is on the whole very fragmented, why is he bothering to try and argue otherwise when it just destroys his whole argument?
    Well said.

    Further, I think he heard the Bible being called "A bedtime story", thought it was clever, and has used it since. Grow up, you sixteen year-old.

    Before you mention it; age comes into maturity.
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    Well said.

    Further, I think he heard the Bible being called "A bedtime story", thought it was clever, and has used it since. Grow up, you sixteen year-old.

    Before you mention it; age comes into maturity.
    *chuckles* Not bad. Not too bad at all.
    A few words you may like...
    Growing old comes naturally, growing up is optional.
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    (Original post by lala)
    Nobody said he was stupid. He's posted some stupid comments though. The fact that he's studied the Reformation and yet still thinks it makes sense to talk about a single Christian church (and subsequently defend his argument!) makes me think maybe it hasn't quite sunk in. If he's clinging to a premise thats inherently flawed, and he is, it makes it incredibly difficult for him to construct an argument that actually makes sense- it has been very easy for me to pick holes in his point because he is fundamentally wrong about the structure of the Christian church. If he does actually know that Christianity is made up of many denominations and is on the whole very fragmented, why is he bothering to try and argue otherwise when it just destroys his whole argument?
    The concept of Christianity is morally wrong. Bigoted people like you seem to find it acceptable to attack homosexuals; you discriminate and abuse.
    And I am not wrong about the Christian Church - you are. The established religion is Protestantism, and it should be disestablished because it's full of biogted idiots who need to join the real world. I appreiate that you are a bigoted idiot, but you don't follow the established religion.
    And I am Jewish btw, so I do know a bit about Judaism.
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    (Original post by Tek)
    The concept of Christianity is morally wrong. Bigoted people like you seem to find it acceptable to attack homosexuals; you discriminate and abuse.
    And I am not wrong about the Christian Church - you are. The established religion is Protestantism, and it should be disestablished because it's full of biogted idiots who need to join the real world. I appreiate that you are a bigoted idiot, but you don't follow the established religion.
    And I am Jewish btw, so I do know a bit about Judaism.
    I have found in all the discussions on different website forums concerning religion that those who are vehemently 'anti' always accuse believers of bigotry. Now they can spout off as much venom as they're capable of but fail to see that it is themselves who are the bigots because of the nature of their attacks
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    Just to provide some facts to the debate

    The census did not ask about denomination - and the 70% figure is the proportion of respondants who stated their religion as christian *and* their ethnicity as white, the proportion who stated themselves to be christians regardless of race is likely to be higher (source: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=395) .

    *However* the census asked about what faith you would describe yourself as, in 2000 research was done into the proportions of people *practising/belonging to* the various religions (including the christian denominations). The results are below:

    Religion (%)
    Church of England/Anglican 29.8
    Roman Catholic 9.2
    Christian - no denomination 6.3
    Presbyterian/Free-Presbyterian/Church of Scotland 3.5
    Baptist or Methodist 3.4
    Other Protestant/Other Christian 2.5
    United Reform Church 0.5
    Brethren -

    All christians 55.2

    Islam/Muslim 2.0
    Hindu 1.0
    Jewish 0.8
    Sikh 0.4
    Other non-Christian 0.4
    Buddhist 0.1
    All non-christians religions 4.7

    Refusal/Not Answered/Didn't Know 0.6
    None 39.5
    (source: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBAS...eets/D5203.xls)
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    (Original post by Tek)
    The concept of Christianity is morally wrong. Bigoted people like you seem to find it acceptable to attack homosexuals; you discriminate and abuse.
    And I am not wrong about the Christian Church - you are. The established religion is Protestantism, and it should be disestablished because it's full of biogted idiots who need to join the real world. I appreiate that you are a bigoted idiot, but you don't follow the established religion.
    And I am Jewish btw, so I do know a bit about Judaism.
    You are quite stupid really.
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    (Original post by Tek)
    The established religion is Protestantism, and it should be disestablished because it's full of biogted idiots who need to join the real world.
    Disestablishing the CofE wont stop bigots.

    Bigots are the christians who aren't following the golden rule.
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    That paper is well written, and i agree it should be removed as the national religion, and stop being given special status.
    But for it to be disbanded all together is clearly lunacy.
    You cannot go about disbanding religions, they don't work like that.
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    (Original post by Tek)
    The concept of Christianity is morally wrong. Bigoted people like you seem to find it acceptable to attack homosexuals; you discriminate and abuse.
    And I am not wrong about the Christian Church - you are. The established religion is Protestantism, and it should be disestablished because it's full of biogted idiots who need to join the real world. I appreiate that you are a bigoted idiot, but you don't follow the established religion.
    And I am Jewish btw, so I do know a bit about Judaism.
    That was even stupider then your previous posts, which is no mean feat considering the amount of s**t you've managed to spew already.
    You were wrong in suggesting that there is one single Christian Church. Wrong. There is no such entity- Christianity consists of many diverse denominations, and they take a united position on very little. Including homosexuality- and by the way for anti-gay tirades you might want to look at the Jewish scriptures. You can try and dress up your elementary mistake all you like behind ridiculous acusations of bigotry (and when by the way have you ever seen me post anything negative about homosexuality? Find me any evidence whatsoever) but the fact is its obvious that you have very little idea what you're talking about. You made a stupid mistake first time round and are now still clinging to it even though you must have realised that you were incorrect. The established religion of this country isn't Protestantism by the way, its C of E. All Anglicans are Protestants but not all Protestants are Anglicans. There are Protestants such as Baptists and Methodists who are not members of the established church. So its inaccurate to suggest that Protestantism is the established religion. If you're going to attempt to have a discussion with me on the subject instead of continuing your moronic rant then its important that you grasp this basic point.
    I know you are Jewish, but the fact that you referred to a 'Jewish Church' makes me doubt that you actually know very much about even your own tradition. You're also going to need to back up any accusations of bigotry with some proof to be taken seriously, and since you haven't it isnt worth arguing with you on the point as evidently you have nothing sensible to say (should I come out with the cliched but true "my best mate is gay" line now or later I wonder?!). NB I'm not a practising Catholic so best not to base any argument you make on that- just a tip. Also, I worry that some of the things you have written about Christianity, badly informed though they are, might make people think its you thats the bigot. You really ought to be more careful, little boy.
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    I have found in all the discussions on different website forums concerning religion that those who are vehemently 'anti' always accuse believers of bigotry. Now they can spout off as much venom as they're capable of but fail to see that it is themselves who are the bigots because of the nature of their attacks
    You both have good points. Very good points. Take for example, the Catholic churches pathetic role of non-involvement during Hitler's little holocaust. Pretty damn weak. Yet allowing a same sex marriage? Yeah right, that is only now coming into acceptance. Let alone the condemnation of using contraception. Such extremities really do bring the good points of religion down. And they are only a few examples, even then only with Catholicism.
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    (Original post by Sire)
    You both have good points. Very good points. Take for example, the Catholic churches pathetic role of non-involvement during Hitler's little holocaust. Pretty damn weak. Yet allowing a same sex marriage? Yeah right, that is only now coming into acceptance. Let alone the condemnation of using contraception. Such extremities really do bring the good points of religion down. And they are only a few examples, even then only with Catholicism.
    I've already discussed the holocaust issue in detail with blamps (on a thread titled islam i think) so I wont go into too much detail. Just two major points.
    Firstly, generalisations about what the Catholic Church did in the Holocaust are inaccurate (you mean there should have been more done to stop it then get involved? I hope so!). Gilbert notes that when Rome fell to the Allies there were 5000 Jews hidden in church buildings in that one city alone. Catholic priests, nuns and monks were involved in this rescue. I think in general that, as with other religious groups, there was huge variation in what Catholics did concerning the Holocaust. Schindler was Catholic and RC clergy were not spared the concentration camps but then equally there must have been some Catholics who were in the SS too. I get the distinct impression the Pope at the time had anti-semitic tendencies, though I've seen very contradictory literature, yet I also know that he protested the deportation of Hungarian Jews. Complex? Hell yeah.
    Second- I can appreciate that you're only discussing Catholicism but I think its important that you acknowledge that there were plenty of other individuals and groups who showed inaction. Churchill and Roosevelt knew the score and did nothing, and they werent facing the same risks as the Pope was. None of the groups they lead were under Nazi rule. Elie Wiesel controversially accuses American Jews of not having done enough to save their European brothers. I dont know much about that particular side issue though.
    By the way, the contraception point relates to artificial methids. Catholics are encouraged to use natural methods of contraception. Its an important distinction.
    Hope this is useful and interesting to you.
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    (Original post by lala)
    I've already discussed the holocaust issue in detail with blamps (on a thread titled islam i think) so I wont go into too much detail. Just two major points.
    Firstly, generalisations about what the Catholic Church did in the Holocaust are inaccurate (you mean there should have been more done to stop it then get involved? I hope so!). Gilbert notes that when Rome fell to the Allies there were 5000 Jews hidden in church buildings in that one city alone. Catholic priests, nuns and monks were involved in this rescue. I think in general that, as with other religious groups, there was huge variation in what Catholics did concerning the Holocaust. Schindler was Catholic and RC clergy were not spared the concentration camps but then equally there must have been some Catholics who were in the SS too. I get the distinct impression the Pope at the time had anti-semitic tendencies, though I've seen very contradictory literature, yet I also know that he protested the deportation of Hungarian Jews. Complex? Hell yeah.
    Second- I can appreciate that you're only discussing Catholicism but I think its important that you acknowledge that there were plenty of other individuals and groups who showed inaction. Churchill and Roosevelt knew the score and did nothing, and they werent facing the same risks as the Pope was. None of the groups they lead were under Nazi rule. Elie Wiesel controversially accuses American Jews of not having done enough to save their European brothers. I dont know much about that particular side issue though.
    By the way, the contraception point relates to artificial methids. Catholics are encouraged to use natural methods of contraception. Its an important distinction.
    Hope this is useful and interesting to you.
    lala - I always enjoy your posts for their knowlegeable and succinct content. You have a great advantage over those who are not able to express their opinion so eloquently - and your posts are all your own words rather than 'cut and paste.' If I was your lecturer I would definitely award you an A!
    Well done gel!!
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    lala - I always enjoy your posts for their knowlegeable and succinct content. You have a great advantage over those who are not able to express their opinion so eloquently - and your posts are all your own words rather than 'cut and paste.' If I was your lecturer I would definitely award you an A!
    Well done gel!!
    Oh thats so sweet thank you! I would like to have proper sensible discussions more but they do get bogged down sometimes and its a shame.
    I will tell my tutor what you said and maybe he will take the hint about the A!
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    lala - I always enjoy your posts for their knowlegeable and succinct content. You have a great advantage over those who are not able to express their opinion so eloquently - and your posts are all your own words rather than 'cut and paste.' If I was your lecturer I would definitely award you an A!
    Well done gel!!
    Agreed, yet while the delivery is excellent, the perception of the original post leaves something to be desired. Still... did enjoy reading that, and you're right on the points you raised.
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    (Original post by Sire)
    Agreed, yet while the delivery is excellent, the perception of the original post leaves something to be desired. Still... did enjoy reading that, and you're right on the points you raised.
    Thank you, and like I say I hope it helped.
    Which perception is it you dont like? I'm no expert or anything but I can go into more detail about it if you tell me which it is.
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    (Original post by lala)
    Thank you, and like I say I hope it helped.
    Which perception is it you dont like? I'm no expert or anything but I can go into more detail about it if you tell me which it is.
    No fear. The mistake was mine in what I posted, and the words I chose.
 
 
 
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