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Corporal Punishment in the Judicial System watch

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    It would never be re-introduced. Too many human rights law nowadays. Its come to the point, where even police cant use theiur weopans anymore. [AND NO, i havnt been watching too much of 'The Bill', its true, lol]
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    (Original post by andyukguy)
    Frances,

    The point of the arguement, the crux of it really is that people wouldn't mug for the £20 and phone if they consequences were severe enough. Getting their hand chopped off if they committed the crime perhaps instead of killing them? How about male rapists getting their penis cut off? I never plan to mug or rape anyone, so it doesn't bother me in the slightest that the scum would have it done to them.

    I'm coming up 3rd year CompSci.

    Andrew
    The point is that it's way, way over the top. Even if it stops people comitting crimes this is somebody's life. They are people, even if you just think of them as "scum". While you might not be upset at their death, I can imagine their family might well be. :mad:

    And yeah, let's cut off their hands, lets copy a punishment used in some of the most repressive countries in the world, countries that people like yourself often claim that we're better than, more civillised than even.

    And the point about the death penalty applies to all kinds of physical punishment like this. If it turns out you got the wrong guy, you can't just say "Opps, sorry, have your hand back!". FFS :mad:
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    And for those of you who really are interested:

    V.A.C. Gattrell, The Hanging Tree (a study of the abolition of public - ! - executions in Britain)

    Michel Foucault, Discipline and Punish (on the shift from capital punishment to the penitentiary)

    Michael Ignatieff, A Just Measure of Pain (going more into the advantages/disadvantages idea of crime and punishment)

    Richard Evans, Rituals of Retribution(on political context and public opinion on executions in Germany from the Middle Ages to the twentieth century)

    and many, many more.
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    (Original post by tommyboy)
    Because, clearly, when such punishments were meted out to robbers, highwaymen, thieves, etc. (let's say in the late eighteenth century) these crimes all suddenly disappeared and nobody committed robberies, muggings, etc. :rolleyes:

    Guys, the debate you're having here is at least four centuries old, and sadly nobody has come up with a good solution in all this time.
    Your arguement doesn't work, 4 centuries agon the Police didn't even exist. There was no proper law enforcing agency. Hence why muggings etc continued.

    In this day and age I think it's time to re-introduce proper punishments, we have the ability to prove beyond reasonable doubt so much more now with the advent of forensic science etc we have a proper law enforcement agency with far reaching powers and total coverage of all parts of the UK.

    Andrew
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    (Original post by Frances)
    The point is that it's way, way over the top. Even if it stops people comitting crimes this is somebody's life. They are people, even if you just think of them as "scum". While you might not be upset at their death, I can imagine their family might well be. :mad:
    I'm surpised how flippant you are when talking about the abolition of crime! Surely that is the end goal of the Police, the Goverment, the prison system?

    They are scum, they've raped someone, maybe you, maybe your mum or your gran? They ruined your life, left you psychologically scarred and afraid to leave your house. But I guess that's ok, they're a person after all (pfft, what worthwhile "human" rapes another and ruins their life?)

    (Original post by Frances)
    And yeah, let's cut off their hands, lets copy a punishment used in some of the most repressive countries in the world, countries that people like yourself often claim that we're better than, more civillised than even.
    Just because these countries repress women, or free speech doesn't mean that we should assume their judicial methods are also useless? Singapore isn't the most free place but economically it does very well. No one country is perfect.

    (Original post by Frances)
    And the point about the death penalty applies to all kinds of physical punishment like this. If it turns out you got the wrong guy, you can't just say "Opps, sorry, have your hand back!". FFS :mad:
    If this is decided by a jury, then the evidence would have had to have been so convincing that a majority found that beyond reasonable doubt the person was guilty - I would still sleep at night. You either believe in our justice system, or you don't.

    Andrew
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    (Original post by andyukguy)
    I'm surpised how flippant you are when talking about the abolition of crime! Surely that is the end goal of the Police, the Goverment, the prison system?

    They are scum, they've raped someone, maybe you, maybe your mum or your gran? They ruined your life, left you psychologically scarred and afraid to leave your house. But I guess that's ok, they're a person after all (pfft, what worthwhile "human" rapes another and ruins their life?)



    Just because these countries repress women, or free speech doesn't mean that we should assume their judicial methods are also useless? Singapore isn't the most free place but economically it does very well. No one country is perfect.



    If this is decided by a jury, then the evidence would have had to have been so convincing that a majority found that beyond reasonable doubt the person was guilty - I would still sleep at night. You either believe in our justice system, or you don't.

    Andrew
    Don't call me flippant. To say that it would end crime is JOKE. Does the death penalty mean the end of murder? Does it hell! Does the death penalty mean that innocent people get murdered themselves? Look at the evidence, and I think you'll find it does! Juries can be WRONG. And a justice system run by people can always be wrong, because people are not perfect, they have unconcious prejudices, they make mistakes. Just look at how many times innocent people have been let out years and years after a jury found them guilty "beyond reasonable doubt."

    You may be prepared to accept the death of innocent people, but I think calling that justice is a ridiculous. The ONLY reason I have faith in our justice system is because it has the ability to correct its mistakes. If you kill someone or cut off their hand, then that isn't possible!

    And just because I think someone is scum does not mean I have the right to kill them! They ARE humans, they have a chance to change, to become better, and maybe some of them don't, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

    The fact that Singapore may be economicly very successful does not excuse the fact that their civil liberties are crap! In fact, that's entirely irrelevant to the argument. Regimes like the Taliban used to cut off the hands of theives. The reason I like my country, imperfect as it is, is because it's DIFFERENT to regimes like that.
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    if we look around the world at countrues that have more liberal approaches to crime, you will notice they have lower crime rates. That is no coincidence my friend
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    (Original post by Frances)
    You may be prepared to accept the death of innocent people, but I think calling that justice is a ridiculous. The ONLY reason I have faith in our justice system is because it has the ability to correct its mistakes. If you kill someone or cut off their hand, then that isn't possible!

    And just because I think someone is scum does not mean I have the right to kill them! They ARE humans, they have a chance to change, to become better, and maybe some of them don't, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.
    You sound very much like an Amnesty drone

    I'm prepared to accept the death of guilty people. Stop looking at the 0.00001% of cases where the verdict is incorrect and lets look at the 100% proven cases, pictures were taken of the rape, DNA, clothing etc etc why not kill them?

    They might be physically human but mentally they are inept and morally bankrupt so serve no purpose to society. Off with their heads.

    Andrew
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    wow!!
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    (Original post by markgg)
    if we look around the world at countrues that have more liberal approaches to crime, you will notice they have lower crime rates. That is no coincidence my friend
    Can you show that? Sounds unlikely to me. The only place I could believe that could happen is places like Iceland, Norway where immigration numbers are tiny.

    Andrew
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    oh so now we will just blame the immigrants.

    if in doubt blame the foreigners.

    and how do you know their immigrant population is low? Ive been their and i can tell you they have their asian and black areas just like us.
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    (Original post by markgg)
    oh so now we will just blame the immigrants.

    if in doubt blame the foreigners.

    and how do you know their immigrant population is low? Ive been their and i can tell you they have their asian and black areas just like us.
    Mark, I visit Norway on a yearly basis due to having good friends there. I talk to their families, we discuss matters like this. They (the Norwegians) attribute their safe streets to the lack of mass immigration + strong family groups (e.g. not bringing shame upon the family). The whole country feels like one large family.

    They inform me the situation is the same in Iceland, less so in Sweden however.

    Andrew
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    Iceland, Norway
    But all foreigners are evil, not just immigrants, right?
    Oh, now I'm confused, who are the scapegoats again?
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    (Original post by Speleo)
    But all foreigners are evil, not just immigrants, right?
    Oh, now I'm confused, who are the scapegoats again?
    What are you on about?

    Andrew
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    (Original post by andyukguy)
    You sound very much like an Amnesty drone

    I'm prepared to accept the death of guilty people. Stop looking at the 0.00001% of cases where the verdict is incorrect and lets look at the 100% proven cases, pictures were taken of the rape, DNA, clothing etc etc why not kill them?

    They might be physically human but mentally they are inept and morally bankrupt so serve no purpose to society. Off with their heads.

    Andrew
    You send like a generic right wing drone.

    It's WAY more than 0.00001% of cases, and you can't honestly think it's as low as that. If you do, you seriously haven't looked at the evidence.

    I think that the fact that you're prepared to accept the death of innocent people (as WILL happen with the death penalty) makes you morally bankrupt.
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    (Original post by andyukguy)
    Your arguement doesn't work, 4 centuries agon the Police didn't even exist. There was no proper law enforcing agency. Hence why muggings etc continued.
    The police as we know it did not exist but people like Guy Fawkes got arrested for their crimes.
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    What are you on about?
    You just blamed immigrants for the vast majority of crime :rolleyes:
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    The justice system is far from perfect.
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    (Original post by andyukguy)
    Your arguement doesn't work, 4 centuries agon the Police didn't even exist. There was no proper law enforcing agency. Hence why muggings etc continued.

    In this day and age I think it's time to re-introduce proper punishments, we have the ability to prove beyond reasonable doubt so much more now with the advent of forensic science etc we have a proper law enforcement agency with far reaching powers and total coverage of all parts of the UK.

    Andrew
    I'm not arguing anything, just offering a thought. In a way, I find this debate somewhat amusing. Of course, people will come up with different models of social control in the future. However, whether they will work can ultimately only be determined with hindsight. This is what makes the whole thing so tricky.

    Again, your second paragraph coud stem from a late nineteenth-century legal reformer. You certainly have a good point there, but yet again we could only see how far-reaching police powers and scientific evidence are at present if we were able to compare it with what they will b e like in the future. Unfortunately, we can't. This doesn't, of course, stop us from trying.
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    (Original post by Frances)
    You send like a generic right wing drone.

    It's WAY more than 0.00001% of case, and you can't honestly think it's as low as that. If you do, you seriously haven't looked at the evidence.

    I think that the fact that you're prepared to accept the death of innocent people (as WILL happen with the death penalty) makes you morally bankrupt.
    I do think it is as low as that. I also think this: If a woman cries rape when it was consensual, and it can be proven (there was an article recently where this woman had cried rape twice because it was more convenient then getting caught adulterating) then she should be killed too. Being accussed of rape can destroy a mans life just as much as a woman being raped.

    Do you accept the current system does not work? Crime is on the up? You wouldn't feel safe walking through Radford at night would you?

    Andrew
 
 
 
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