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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Do you think America wouldn't do the same if it could get bin Laden?
    Bin Laden is prob an entirely diff case. remember that he personally owned (not sure anymore but prob has some stashed) millions of dollars with which he helped bankroll al queda operations.

    And if u think that telling me the US would do the same makes it any less sickening, you are wrong.
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    (Original post by foolfarian)
    Bin Laden is prob an entirely diff case. remember that he personally owned (not sure anymore but prob has some stashed) millions of dollars with which he helped bankroll al queda operations.

    And if u think that telling me the US would do the same makes it any less sickening, you are wrong.
    You don't think it's the duty of any government to prevent terrorist attacks against its population, even if it requires collateral damage?
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    You don't think it's the duty of any government to prevent terrorist attacks against its population, even if it requires collateral damage?
    i think that a modern well equiped force like the IDF should find other solutions and methods to take out high ranking officials that dont require the use of high explosives amongst civilians.
    Lets put it like this, if the hamas leader was in an apartment block in tel aviv do u think they would drop the tonne bomb then..?
    no, because palestinian collateral damamge means nothing to them...
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    (Original post by foolfarian)
    i think that a modern well equiped force like the IDF should find other solutions and methods to take out high ranking officials that dont require the use of high explosives amongst civilians.
    Lets put it like this, if the hamas leader was in an apartment block in tel aviv do u think they would drop the tonne bomb then..?
    no, because palestinian collateral damamge means nothing to them...
    Like what? I'm sure the IDF will be glad to know of these other solutions you speak of.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    How does a UN peacekeeping prevent a suicide bomb or a rocket from being launched from Palestinian 'territory'?
    But wasn't the justification of the Wall to do just that?
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    So if Israel wasn't killing Palestinians or worsening their standard of living, you wouldn't call the situation an occupation, correct?
    No. That would be like the Syrian occupation of Lebanon in a way. The Jordanian and Egyptian presence was defensive and fraternal.

    So because the Palestinians were bullied and threatened into rejoining their Arab neighbours in hostility against Israel, they were never occupied, because a shared hostility towards Israel knows no borders? This is indeed the concept of the Arab nation and one which undermines charges made against Israel of 'occupation'.
    Who said they were bullied? They rejected the partition. On what grounds did the Jews deserve independence?

    How does a UN peacekeeping prevent a suicide bomb or a rocket from being launched from Palestinian 'territory'?
    They mostly attack illegal settlements.

    They assassinate terrorists. They go after positions where terrorists are attacking Israel.
    Define terrorist. And when do "terrorists" stop being so and become a resistance movement from the people?

    Could that have something to do with the fact that these terrorists intentionally stay in crowded, residential areas?
    No. They live there. This is the people you are fighitng. Do you expect all the resistance to group together ina remote area so they cann all be slaughtered? That's if they are allowed out of their towns and villages.

    You don't think it's the duty of any government to prevent terrorist attacks against its population, even if it requires collateral damage?
    First of all, it's dead people/slaughtered civilians. I doubt you'd refer to any dead Jews as collateral damage. And every time Israel blows someones relative up, they have another suicide bomber. And you generally kill more than one when you fire missiles into crowds.
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Define terrorist. And when do "terrorists" stop being so and become a resistance movement from the people?
    When they win.
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    I wonder what the pro-terror side of the argument thinks about my above suggestion.

    And when do "terrorists" stop being so and become a resistance movement from the people?
    I don't ever recall hearing about the French Resistance sickly, deliberately targetting school children in order to kill as many of them as they could, as part of some supposed military objective.
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    (Original post by JonD)


    I don't ever recall hearing about the French Resistance sickly, deliberately targetting school children in order to kill as many of them as they could, as part of some supposed military objective.
    So who is doing all the above? The Israeli army or the Palestinian resistance? :confused:
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    (Original post by yawn)
    So who is doing all the above? The Israeli army or the Palestinian resistance? :confused:
    Oh, are we going assume that when the Palestinian's bomb school busses, they're not really trying to kill as many of the ones on board as they can, but really are waging an intricate war against leather seats? :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by foolfarian)
    because it failed in the past (when admittedly the area was much more unstable and anti-israeli than it is now) they refuse to allow it again.
    however, being cynically minded i would say that the israelis need continued violence in order to keep their gains, and continue expanding.
    Despite no evidence to suggest this to be the case.
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    (Original post by foolfarian)
    i think that a modern well equiped force like the IDF should find other solutions and methods to take out high ranking officials that dont require the use of high explosives amongst civilians.
    Officials? haha.

    Like a car bomb?

    Lets put it like this, if the hamas leader was in an apartment block in tel aviv do u think they would drop the tonne bomb then..?
    no, because palestinian collateral damamge means nothing to them...
    Would they in fact wait for him to leave the apartment block and then attack his car or his entourage? Or is this too plausible an answer?
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    (Original post by foolfarian)
    If a man hides amongst a crowd of people - some of whom have little idea of his presence, and others who fear to speak up, you believe it is perfectly acceptable to simply blow the whole crowd to pieces in order to 'get your man'?
    If the crowd knowingly harbour him yes. Israel has hit buildings when they acted as Hamas safe houses. Israel has hit residential buildings when they acted as cover for terrorist tunnels. All legal under the Geneva Convention. To the best of my knowledge Israel hasnt wiped out a busy market for the sake of one suspect. See the last two assassinations of prominent Hamas leaders. To almost everyones knowledge, Hamas does its best to wipe out a busy market for the sake its cause.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    But wasn't the justification of the Wall to do just that?
    Jon suggested that the UN would replace the wall.
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    The Jordanian and Egyptian presence was defensive and fraternal.
    Defensive? Who declared war on Israel twice?

    Who said they were bullied? They rejected the partition. On what grounds did the Jews deserve independence?
    See the evidence I provided to yawn.

    They mostly attack illegal settlements.
    Irrespective of the inaccuracy, it doesnt really address the question.

    Define terrorist. And when do "terrorists" stop being so and become a resistance movement from the people?
    When the resistance doesnt involve targeting and blowing innocent men, women and children up. Its a rather basic moral distinction.

    I doubt you'd refer to any dead Jews as collateral damage.
    I know your motives make it difficult, but could you make an effort to refer to them as Israelis please.

    I doubt I would refer to many Israeli casualties with the term collateral damage, as more often than not they are deliberately targeted. Another salient distinction that you appear to be unable to make.
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    (Original post by JonD)
    Oh, are we going assume that when the Palestinian's bomb school busses, they're not really trying to kill as many of the ones on board as they can, but really are waging an intricate war against leather seats? :rolleyes:
    You're neglecting the fact that Israelis will target indiscriminately to 'take out' a suspected terrorist/freedom fighter.

    I ask, who is the terrorist?
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    (Original post by yawn)
    You're neglecting the fact that Israelis will target indiscriminately to 'take out' a suspected terrorist/freedom fighter.

    I ask, who is the terrorist?
    That is not indiscriminate targetting. If you have a certain person or target in mind when targetting, you are clearly discriminating.

    When one attacks an undefined group of people, with the purpose of simply killing as many as possible, that is indiscriminate.
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    (Original post by TheVlad)
    That is not indiscriminate targetting. If you have a certain person or target in mind when targetting, you are clearly discriminating.
    If. by targetting a certain person, the foreseen result is that other, innocent people are killed, then, imo that is indiscriminate targetting.

    One can use semantics to defend their view, but the outcome is the crux - no?
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    (Original post by yawn)
    If. by targetting a certain person, the foreseen result is that other, innocent people are killed, then, imo that is indiscriminate targetting.

    One can use semantics to defend their view, but the outcome is the crux - no?
    Do you not believe that the Israeli military does its best to limit civillian casualties? Surely it would be in their interests to do so.

    The purpose of Israel's actions is to take out the leaders of their attackers. The purpose of the suicide bombers' actions is to put terror into the IOsraeli population. Therefore they are terrorists.
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    (Original post by TheVlad)
    Do you not believe that the Israeli military does its best to limit civillian casualties? Surely it would be in their interests to do so.

    The purpose of Israel's actions is to take out the leaders of their attackers. The purpose of the suicide bombers' actions is to put terror into the IOsraeli population. Therefore they are terrorists.
    Well I guess we shall have to agree to differ on our interpretations of terrorism.

    Regarding your first point - from all the media coverage I have seen, there is no evidence that the Israeli army 'does its' best to limit civilian casualties. They should - after all they have to be seen to maintain the high moral ground - but as they don't appear to, they are losing the support of those who would not normally be expected to show bias, one way or the other - in other words, people like me!
 
 
 
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