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    (Original post by thebucketwoman)
    We've all seen the aftermath of unwarned suicide attacks.
    I would not disagree with you there. I was shocked however, more by the blatant killing of an innocent mother of five, by an army supposedly representing democracy - plus their unconcerned response to condemnation of the act.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    I would not disagree with you there. I was shocked however, more by the blatant killing of an innocent mother of five, by an army supposedly representing democracy - plus their unconcerned response to condemnation of the act.
    why shocked at something you know has happened there for decades?
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    (Original post by technik)
    clearly theres something i missed.

    perhaps you could explain whats so interesting about that video
    Well, if you've missed it how can I explain what you have missed? Try having another look dear.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Ive chosen a source that seems to be impartial and that has been sourced before on TSR..


    http://www.time.com/time/2002/jenin/story.html

    "In the camp, the explosive charges were even more densely packed, and tunnels had been dug between houses so that Palestinian fighters could move around without exposing themselves on the street. Many noncombatants had fled; Israeli intelligence believes half the camp's residents had left before the troops arrived, and that by the third day of the battle 90% of the residents were gone"

    "Israeli officials insist that they gave clear warning before entering any house. Masarweh heard an Israeli intelligence officer bellowing in Arabic through a megaphone from the street outside. "People in the house," the Israeli said, "get out. We don't want you to be hurt." The officer waited: "People, get out. People in the house, we are going to come in." Palestinians say Israelis frequently used camp residents to knock on doors to persuade people to come out into the street. Israeli army sources confirmed to Time that they used this practice, which Human Rights Watch condemned in its report as a violation of international humanitarian law.

    Masarweh eventually persuaded the women to step outside, waving white sheets. The men followed. They were ordered to strip and were then taken in armored personnel carriers to a camp, before being transferred to a jail inside Israel. On April 6, after three days of detention, Masarweh was bused back to the Jenin area. "Don't go back in the camp," the Israelis told him. He didn't need the advice; by then, the battle had become far too intense. "

    How any comparison can be drawn between this and a suicide bomber detonating themselves in a busy café or on a bus, is beyond belief.
    Vienna - I would not suggest that any links that posters choose to post would not be impartial!

    Yes, I take your point on this one. But it is only one account and does not corroborate your statement that the IDF always issue such warnings.

    Perhaps there is something on the IDF guidelines that instructs them to always issue warnings? Any links to somesuch?
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    (Original post by Vienna)

    How any comparison can be drawn between this and a suicide bomber detonating themselves in a busy café or on a bus, is beyond belief.
    What could compare with the horror of soldiers from an army killing an innocent mother of 5 in front of those children and inside her own home?
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    If the mother of 5 was about to kill 5 children, no.
    What has that got to do with anything?
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    First of all, how can you measure the opinions of the 'VAST' majority of the people of the middle east? I take it you mean the Middle East minus Israel. Even with this logic, 34% of non Israeli middle easteners are not Arabs.
    Well - the fact that you see demonstrations on the streets of such countries to protest the death or mistreatment of other Arabs or Muslims, and not a peep when it comes to say, the Congo... they are generally entirely unaware of it.

    Or are you saying that they take as much interest in the deaths of non-mulsims or non-arabs as they do muslims or arabs?

    Or perhaps its just an anti-americanism? When Sadam was killing Iraqis by their thousands, they certianly didnt protest. So have I got it wrong? its not when people die, or even when muslims and Arabs die - its when the US is the one that does the killing?

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    If you read that in context you'll find I wasn't defending it, I was saying that they attack settlements mainly, so if they left it would be doubtful they'd attack 'Israel propper.'
    Fair enough - though I find the context to be rather ambiguous on that. If not defending it - would you condemn it?

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Once again, if you are going to quote me, please read the posts properly so you understand the context of the conversation. I went on to say that if a suicide bomber blew himself or herself up at an Israeli military fort guarding a settlement, and a settler child was killed, is that collateral damage?
    it would depend on his motives. If his aim was only to kill the soldier - then in my opinion - yes - the child would be collateral.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    ..mmm - wonder how we would react if it was happening in our country?
    Hopefully not by killing and targetting innocent civilians.
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    (Original post by Alexdel)
    Ye and what? It is your conviction the israelis dont kill innocent people at all...Shame on you..
    Well I dont think that Vienna has EVER claimed that - not that she needs ME to pipe up for her.

    However - simple question then (even though you have answered it previously in the negative):

    "Is Hammas a terrorist organisation".

    If no then, seeing as they desire the death of innocent women and children, and use bombs to kill such targets, and call for the complete destruction of Israel... what WOULD you call a terrorist group. Definitions please - not examples - not "The US" :rolleyes:
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    How any comparison can be drawn between this and a suicide bomber detonating themselves in a busy café or on a bus, is beyond belief.
    We only have the Israeli's word when they say they are killing "terrorists". Now you could argue that all Palestinians are "terrorists" and the feeling would be mutual, because I know a number of fanatics who consider all Israelis as terrorists because they have to serve in the IDF.
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Hopefully not by killing and targetting innocent civilians.
    I believe that if this situation was happening in this country we would react exactly as the Israelis and Palenstinians are reacting!
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    (Original post by yawn)
    I believe that if this situation was happening in this country we would react exactly as the Israelis and Palenstinians are reacting!
    Possibly. But if I was abused as a child I might end up absuing my children. Hardly an excuse.

    If you beleive that people have a choice, and are responsible for their own actions (as the vast majority of Palestinians NOT being suicide bombers shows we do), then whether we would do it is irrelevant to whether or not we should.
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Possibly. But if I was abused as a child I might end up absuing my children. Hardly an excuse.

    If you beleive that people have a choice, and are responsible for their own actions (as the vast majority of Palestinians NOT being suicide bombers shows we do), then whether we would do it is irrelevant to whether or not we should.
    Choice? You seem to think that living in palestine is not much differenct then living the the western world....you think that they wake up each day and think 'shall I bomb people today or not' How can you be so narrow minded as to think it's that simple..
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    (Original post by Alexdel)
    Choice? You seem to think that living in palestine is not much differenct then living the the western world....you think that they wake up each day and think 'shall I bomb people today or not' How can you be so narrow minded as to think it's that simple..
    So they dont choose to do it?

    How odd - they are some how automatous?


    Fact is - the vast majority of Palestinians dont beocme suicide bombers. They make a CHOICE not to. Those who do MAKE A CHOICE TO DO SO.

    Its not narrow minded - its simple human psychology. They make a conscious decision to do A rather than B.

    I dont really see how you can say otherwise.
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    Fact is - the vast majority of Palestinians dont beocme suicide bombers. They make a CHOICE not to. Those who do MAKE A CHOICE TO DO SO.
    Not every Palestinian has had the same experiences. Not every Palestinian has had an elderly man die in their arms after being shot in th head like Wafa Idris, first female bomber. Not all of these people are mentally stable. Especially when they've seen their relatives killed and their people oppressed.

    Most poor people do not commit crime either. But it is undeniable that most petty thieves etc are from poorer communities. So the link is there, as it is with the treatment of Palestinians and suicide bombers.
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Not every Palestinian has had the same experiences. Not every Palestinian has had an elderly man die in their arms after being shot in th head like Wafa Idris, first female bomber. Not all of these people are mentally stable. Especially when they've seen their relatives killed and their people oppressed.

    Most poor people do not commit crime either. But it is undeniable that most petty thieves etc are from poorer communities. So the link is there, as it is with the treatment of Palestinians and suicide bombers.

    I Really dont see your point. Of course there is a link - no one is denying it.

    But I dont see how that can negate the fact that they make a choice. They Choose to do it. They choose to do it just as an Israeli soldier who has had his family or comrades blown up CHOOSES to shoot a Palestinian out of anger and hate.

    Surely YOu of all people wouldnt try to claim that THEY have no choice in the matter. If they dont then they cant be blamed can they? Is that what youre saying? That they have no responsibility for shooting innocent people? THat the suicide bombers have no responsibility for killing innocent people?
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    (Original post by Alexdel)
    Choice? You seem to think that living in palestine is not much differenct then living the the western world....you think that they wake up each day and think 'shall I bomb people today or not' How can you be so narrow minded as to think it's that simple..
    What decision making process do they go through, that those who dont suicide bomb do not?
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Not every Palestinian has had the same experiences. Not every Palestinian has had an elderly man die in their arms after being shot in th head like Wafa Idris, first female bomber. Not all of these people are mentally stable. Especially when they've seen their relatives killed and their people oppressed.

    Most poor people do not commit crime either. But it is undeniable that most petty thieves etc are from poorer communities. So the link is there, as it is with the treatment of Palestinians and suicide bombers.
    Addtitionally, what about a Palestinian who HAS had their family killed, and their children die in their arms, and yet does not become a suicide bomber? They have a choice surely? Or are they simply incapable of becming a suicide bomber?

    If they make a choice - then why dont those who take the opposite path?
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    I may not have understood what you are arguing against. I'm not saying that suicide bombers do not choose to do it, of course they do. I was saying that it is harder for Palestinians to make the right choice and harder still for osme who have undergone particularly nasty experiences.
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    I may not have understood what you are arguing against. I'm not saying that suicide bombers do not choose to do it, of course they do. I was saying that it is harder for Palestinians to make the right choice and harder still for osme who have undergone particularly nasty experiences.
    Alexdel claimed they dont choose to do it, that they somehow have no say in the matter.


    Clearly it makes it more likely that they will make the choice, but then would the same hold true for Israelis who have suffered?
 
 
 
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