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    are "tandis que" and "avant que" followed by the subjuntive??? thanks
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    Yes, but real live French people usually try to find another way to say things in order to avoid using the subjunctive.
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    Everything that follows 'que' has a subjunctive, but I've hardly ever heard my friend use it.
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    (Original post by ModernHippie)
    Everything that follows 'que' has a subjunctive, but I've hardly ever heard my friend use it.
    Not all things that follow que are +subjunctive.

    Après que is a notable exception - it technically should take the indicative (but a lot of french people get it wrong and use the subjunctive with it, anyway)....

    I reckon that French people use the subjunctive more than they think - I remember people telling me that they never really use it, but they do, just without realising (and a lot of verbs in the subjunctive mood are indistinguishable from their indicative forms, but they're still subjunctive, really.... e.g. Il faut que je mange...)
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    But they'd still rather say 'il faut manger'. I don't think there's any real thought about it, they just...kind of automatically don't use subjunctives very much, especially not complicated ones. Maybe it's because some subjunctives sound a bit weird.
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    (Original post by steve2k5)
    are "tandis que" and "avant que" followed by the subjuntive??? thanks
    tandis que - No
    avant que - Yes

    Aitch
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    (Original post by ModernHippie)
    Everything that follows 'que' has a subjunctive, but I've hardly ever heard my friend use it.

    Far from true, I'm afraid! What about parce que, pendant que, for starters?!

    You need to learn the constructions after which the subjunctive is required in French. If you don't, you will make most French people wince!

    In English, nobody really seems to care if you say "I wish I was..." instead of "I wish I were..." but this is not the case in French.

    Aitch
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    (Original post by Madelyn)
    But they'd still rather say 'il faut manger'. I don't think there's any real thought about it, they just...kind of automatically don't use subjunctives very much, especially not complicated ones. Maybe it's because some subjunctives sound a bit weird.
    Very few French native speakers ever get the subjunctive wrong!

    Il faut que je mange is not recognisable as a subjunctive, (although it is one) since it's the same as the indicative here... but you won't hear a native French speaker say "Il faut que je bois..." instead of "Il faut que je boive..." Ask one!

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    (Original post by Madelyn)
    Yes, but real live French people usually try to find another way to say things in order to avoid using the subjunctive.
    I don't think that's true, they tend to use it without even realising it. As someone who learnt French at school I would now wince if someone said "Bien qu'il est..." because "soit" seems so natural. I imagine a French person would find "bien qu'il est" even more painful for the ears.

    As a general rule of thumb the subjunctive is used when there is an expression of doubt or uncertainty. So Aitch is right, "tandis que" doesn't take it (there is no expression of doubt in "whilst"). Something like pourvu que does take it because of the element of doubt in the phrase "provided that...".
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    'soit' is kind of normal so doesn't sound weird, and it's one of the verbs you use most often, so you don't really think about it being strange and irregular, that's just the way it is (like in English). But with more random words, it's easier just to say 'il faut' with the infinitive.
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    (Original post by Madelyn)
    'soit' is kind of normal so doesn't sound weird, and it's one of the verbs you use most often, so you don't really think about it being strange and irregular, that's just the way it is (like in English). But with more random words, it's easier just to say 'il faut' with the infinitive.



    Maybe for an english speaker! Often the subjunctive of regular verbs is the same, so its not going sound different. You also hear a lot of french people using "fasse", "aille", "aie" and "puisse". However the subjunctive isnt uesd to make subtle differences anymore. Like, je cherche le prof, qui sait le francais, and je cherche un prof, qui sache le francais, which is grammatically correct, but never really heard.
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    (Original post by Madelyn)
    'soit' is kind of normal so doesn't sound weird, and it's one of the verbs you use most often, so you don't really think about it being strange and irregular, that's just the way it is (like in English). But with more random words, it's easier just to say 'il faut' with the infinitive.
    That's OK for general comments, but not for applying them to specific people.

    For example:

    Il faut faire attention is not quite the same as

    Il faut que tu fasses attention

    or Il faut que je fasse attention

    But you could avoid the subjunctive with Tu devrais faire attention.

    The sad truth is that the French don't need to avoid the subjunctive, because they know it!

    Aitch
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    (Original post by Madelyn)
    'soit' is kind of normal so doesn't sound weird, and it's one of the verbs you use most often, so you don't really think about it being strange and irregular, that's just the way it is (like in English). But with more random words, it's easier just to say 'il faut' with the infinitive.
    I think in general it's something you feel and as such it "sounds" correct or incorrect but I certainly don't think they would avoid using it ever. Native French people hear it from birth and it just sounds right. It's like in English it's painful to hear someone say "We was going down the shops" and I expect in French it's the same if someone says something along the lines of "Bien que je peux" instead of "bien que je puisse".
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    (Original post by englishstudent)
    It's like in English it's painful to hear someone say "We was going down the shops".

    Yet unfortunately quite common in english now!
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    (Original post by Richy Rich$$)
    Yet unfortunately quite common in english now!

    I do like to hear the subjunctive used correctly in English. Whether it be on Radio 4, or in official documents, it is encouraging that some people insist that the subjunctive remain in use...

    I wish that the subjunctive were used more in English. Then we might get it right in French!

    Aitch
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    It's the misuse of 'sat' in English to which I really object...

    I wasn't saying that French people misuse the subjunctive, or don't use it when they ought to, but when it doesn't matter they, especially younger people, tend to use things like il faut and the infinitive.

    On another topic, how would you translate 'autochtone'? The German equivalent came up in my exam the other day and I always struggle to think of the right English word. 'Native inhabitant' and things just sound wrong.
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    (Original post by Madelyn)
    It's the misuse of 'sat' in English to which I really object...

    I wasn't saying that French people misuse the subjunctive, or don't use it when they ought to, but when it doesn't matter they, especially younger people, tend to use things like il faut and the infinitive.

    On another topic, how would you translate 'autochtone'? The German equivalent came up in my exam the other day and I always struggle to think of the right English word. 'Native inhabitant' and things just sound wrong.
    What was the German word?
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    Einheimer, I think, unless my German short term memory has been driven away by finishing the course (that was, I hope, my last German exam ever) and having to revise Latin.
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    (Original post by Madelyn)
    Einheimer, I think, unless my German short term memory has been driven away by finishing the course (that was, I hope, my last German exam ever) and having to revise Latin.
    Einheimischer it may have been. I'd have said "indigenous" or "native" I suppose. I hate it when a word just doesn't seem quite right when translated. Oh well.
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    (Original post by Madelyn)
    On another topic, how would you translate 'autochtone'? ...

    ... 'Native inhabitant' and things just sound wrong.
    It's stronger than "native", which just implies one generation of a nationality.

    The correct one-word equivalent is probably "aboriginal", with its literal connotation of having been there for ever - ab origine. This has inevitable Australian associations, however. The implication in many contexts would be "of native stock."

    Aitch
 
 
 
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