What do you think about people who claim that Labour and the Tories are no different? Watch

Poll: What do you think?
I agree with those who claim that there isn't much difference between the two (38)
55.88%
People who claim that the two are practically the same are ignorant (29)
42.65%
Don't know (1)
1.47%
Supporting21
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#1
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#1
I often hear people who claim that Labour and the Conservatives are 'the same thing', and I just want to find out what TSRians think about it. Personally, I think it's a ridiculous thing to say. While there's a lot of pragmatism, I still think the two parties hold differing values.
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Phugoid
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#2
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#2
They are not the same but they are associated with one another in the same way that two similarly-sized stars orbit around a common centre of gravity.

Whatever the one party does and fails at, the other will do differently. Labour, for example, became overly-right wing and authoritarian, and Conservative respond by becoming more left-wing and non-intrusive. Labour take the issues of the poorest to heart and fail, and Conservative respond by turning their sights on the issues of the poorest as we seen at the Conservative Conference just the other night.

They are not the same party, but they are locked in a binary system where the actions of one dictate the actions of the other, and the responses and actions between them are circular. For example, I'd predict that Conservative will fail at taking a shot at a left-wing position, causing Labour to re-assume their centre-left position for the general election that succeeds the next. As another example, I'd predict that Conservative will fail at taking the issues of the poor on board to a significant extent which will then result in Labour bidding to reclaim the vote of that group. And following that, we'll see more labour failures, and more conservative changes, then more conservative failures followed by more labour changes.

So what I'm saying here is that they are usually direct opposite parties - but the circular nature of their relationship means that we, the public, usually end up with the same results.
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spaztasticmania
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#3
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(Original post by Phugoid)
They are not the same but they are associated with one another in the same way that two similarly-sized stars orbit around a common centre of gravity.

Whatever the one party does and fails at, the other will do differently. Labour, for example, became overly-right wing and authoritarian, and Conservative respond by becoming more left-wing and non-intrusive. Labour take the issues of the poorest to heart and fail, and Conservative respond by turning their sights on the issues of the poorest as we seen at the Conservative Conference just the other night.... ...

:lolwut:
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Phugoid
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#4
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#4
(Original post by spaztasticmania)
:lolwut:
Yes, excuse the analogy. But you get what I mean...

What I'm saying is that they are two entirely different and mostly opposite parties, but they are locked in a relationship by a force that's so strong that the actions of one has direct consequences on the actions of the other, and as a result, we can envisage them as the same system.
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rajandkwameali
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#5
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#5
there are a lot of similarities, especially in the economy, public services, education, etc.

And also in terms of general ideology. There may have been some economic similarities in the post-war consensus days, but back then Labour and the Tories had distinct ideologies. Labour were a democratic socialist party looking out for the working classes, while the Conservatives were a party leaning towards centre-right policies.

IMO, it is this similarity in ideology which makes people think there is little difference between the two major parties. Both of them are neo-Thatcherite in the end.
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mart2306
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#6
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#6
(Original post by rajandkwameali)
there are a lot of similarities, especially in the economy, public services, education, etc.

And also in terms of general ideology. There may have been some economic similarities in the post-war consensus days, but back then Labour and the Tories had distinct ideologies. Labour were a democratic socialist party looking out for the working classes, while the Conservatives were a party leaning towards centre-right policies.

IMO, it is this similarity in ideology which makes people think there is little difference between the two major parties. Both of them are neo-Thatcherite in the end.

Both aim to win elections. So both have to appeal to the people in the middle as well as the ones on the left/right that makes up their party supporters. The days when people voted for a party because their parents had voted for that party are mostly over. People, for whatever reason, vote for the party or individual that will make a difference for them.
I voted for David Cameron a couple of years back, I don't regret that vote. His opponent was I feel less able than him.

While some policies can be similar, some will be different.
Each has their own ideas about taxation, both will act similarly with regard to that because a good or bad idea is simply too good/bad to ignore.
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AnythingButChardonnay
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#7
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#7
Their conferences have highlighted an enormous difference.

Labour = more nice-sounding ideas, no explanation of how to pay for them. Deficit. What deficit?

Conservatives = The country's deep in the ****. Some things need saying and doing, no matter how uncomfortable they may be.

But then of course that's traditionally how things are. Labour introduce things that in the short term win over their core constituency. Then the money runs out, the economy takes a plunge, and the Conservatives are re-elected and have to fix it. And the cycle continues.
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HappinessHappening
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#8
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#8
When it comes to the fundamentals, they really aren't very different. I want to see an end to protectionism, patents, central banking, nuclear weapons funding etc. Neither party is going to go anywhere near those things. **** 'em both, I say.
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Blátönn
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#9
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#9
(Original post by Supporting21)
I often hear people who claim that Labour and the Conservatives are 'the same thing', and I just want to find out what TSRians think about it. Personally, I think it's a ridiculous thing to say. While there's a lot of pragmatism, I still think the two parties hold differing values.
There's barely anything in it - they're both very central.
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machiavelli123
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#10
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#10
(Original post by Phugoid)
They are not the same but they are associated with one another in the same way that two similarly-sized stars orbit around a common centre of gravity.

Whatever the one party does and fails at, the other will do differently. Labour, for example, became overly-right wing and authoritarian, and Conservative respond by becoming more left-wing and non-intrusive. Labour take the issues of the poorest to heart and fail, and Conservative respond by turning their sights on the issues of the poorest as we seen at the Conservative Conference just the other night.

They are not the same party, but they are locked in a binary system where the actions of one dictate the actions of the other, and the responses and actions between them are circular. For example, I'd predict that Conservative will fail at taking a shot at a left-wing position, causing Labour to re-assume their centre-left position for the general election that succeeds the next. As another example, I'd predict that Conservative will fail at taking the issues of the poor on board to a significant extent which will then result in Labour bidding to reclaim the vote of that group. And following that, we'll see more labour failures, and more conservative changes, then more conservative failures followed by more labour changes.

So what I'm saying here is that they are usually direct opposite parties - but the circular nature of their relationship means that we, the public, usually end up with the same results.
sorry, are you refering to a binary system? in which it is often the case that there is a larger and smaller/brighter and dimmer star. rarely are the stars similarly sized...take albireo for example...
however perhaps this analogy can still be linked to political parties, with Labour the dimmer of the pair?
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spaztasticmania
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#11
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#11
I reckon there's a fair amount of similarity between them... Certainly Cameron and Brown both place massive values on community and society.

But there are, of course, differences... Cameron pretty much laid it out on the table in his speech when he talked about the difference between big Government and little Government... Labour's solution to problems seems to be regulation. Cameron believes over regulation leads to inefficiency. Of course, you need a balance between the two... We've already seen that Labour completely overcooked their belief in regulation by implementing so much bloody bureaucracy in every aspect of Government, in schools, transport, healthcare etc... etc... The question is whether or not you think Cameron would overcook getting rid of regulation so as to promote mindless self-satisfaction.

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Phugoid
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#12
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#12
(Original post by machiavelli123)
sorry, are you refering to a binary system? in which it is often the case that there is a larger and smaller/brighter and dimmer star. rarely are the stars similarly sized...take albireo for example...
however perhaps this analogy can still be linked to political parties, with Labour the dimmer of the pair?
I am referring to a binary system, I even used the word explicitly later on in my post!

I know it is rare that they are similarly sized, but in this case I was not drawing comparison to an actual binary system, but a theoretical one.

It would not be fair to say that Labour were the dimmer pair, because I think that's only CURRENTLY that this is the case, and I think it is usually the case that whichever party has been in Government most recently is the dimmest. So if Conservative win the upcoming general election, then in 3/4 years time, they will be the dimmer party, because their actions will make that so, and their actions will also dictate the actions of Labour - morphing themselves into the better party once again.
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Martyn*
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#13
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#13
It is not just about their paralleled values, but the notion (not totally unfounded, btw) that Cameron is that same Blair before he rose to power in Downing street.

Notice how Cameron, when making a point, uses his thumb over his curled index finger? Blair does this too!
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machiavelli123
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#14
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(Original post by Phugoid)
I am referring to a binary system, I even used the word explicitly later on in my post!

I know it is rare that they are similarly sized, but in this case I was not drawing comparison to an actual binary system, but a theoretical one.

It would not be fair to say that Labour were the dimmer pair, because I think that's only CURRENTLY that this is the case, and I think it is usually the case that whichever party has been in Government most recently is the dimmest. So if Conservative win the upcoming general election, then in 3/4 years time, they will be the dimmer party, because their actions will make that so, and their actions will also dictate the actions of Labour - morphing themselves into the better party once again.
i believe that they are dimmer because of their stance on policies, many of which are unpopular, also it was not a 'bright' decision of mr.brown to sell off all our shiny gold reserves when at the lowest price...
however, that said, i respect your opinion that the tories may dim in the public eye, although i suspect this will be because their cuts on spending will prove unpopular. in the long run though it is neccessary, the tories are doing the right thing...
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Bagration
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#15
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#15
(Original post by machiavelli123)
i believe that that are dimmer because of their stance on policies, many of which are unpopular, also it was not a 'bright' decision of mr.brown to sell off all our shiny gold reserves when at the lowest price....
It's a shame the Tories haven't capitalised on one of the most ridiculous mistakes in economic policy in British history.
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cpj1987
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#16
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#16
I believe that both political parties are slightly different (though only slightly), but that both will make equal damage in power.
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username196545
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#17
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#17
What you're saying is are they ideological or catch-all parties?

I say; they're catch-all. Come on, how Socialist is Labour really? They're about as close to clause IV as... well, they're not at all. All this nationalising...
Apart from a few vocal ***** in the Tories like Hannan (libertarian), they don't seem especially right wing at all tbh either.

Both parties have steadily shifted closer into the centre.
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headunderwater
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#18
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#18
I'd think that they're spot on.
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Bagration
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#19
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#19
(Original post by HappinessHappening)
When it comes to the fundamentals, they really aren't very different. I want to see an end to protectionism, patents, central banking, nuclear weapons funding etc. Neither party is going to go anywhere near those things. **** 'em both, I say.
Wait, since when? I always remember you as really statist.
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JW92
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#20
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#20
People who claim that there is much difference between the two are ignorant.



This is in 2003, the parties have only become more homogenised in the past 6 years.
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