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TSR Classical Music Society watch

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    (Original post by Fletch)
    Hi Guys
    I haven't visited for a long time (another story) and I'm loving the new-look TSR.

    Here's a topic for discussion and I'm not declaring my position until I've seen some of your arguments

    Is classical music i.e. Western European art music, intrinsically superior to non-classical music e.g. pop, rock, jazz, musical theatre?

    Obviously this needs a bit of defining of terms, setting values, examples etc. but I think you know where I'm going.

    Nice to be back.
    What do you mean by intrinsically? Do you mean is it more 'natural' so to speak? As in it is able to communicate its message more effectively?

    EDIT: Sorry, should have introduced myself. Complete newcomer to TSR and LOVE classical music
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    (Original post by sarah0sarah)
    What do you mean by intrinsically? Do you mean is it more 'natural' so to speak? As in it is able to communicate its message more effectively?

    EDIT: Sorry, should have introduced myself. Complete newcomer to TSR and LOVE classical music
    Welcome Sarah.
    That is certainly part of the equation. I was thinking more along the lines of does classical music have an inbuilt superiority so that any piece of classical music will, by its nature, be superior to a piece of Rhythm and Blues or Dubstep? But let the discussion commence and I'm sure the parameters will change.
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    (Original post by Fletch)
    Welcome Sarah.
    That is certainly part of the equation. I was thinking more along the lines of does classical music have an inbuilt superiority so that any piece of classical music will, by its nature, be superior to a piece of Rhythm and Blues or Dubstep? But let the discussion commence and I'm sure the parameters will change.
    Hmmm. I think that I believe that as long as the piece of music is there for a reason and not just for a pretty tune, than they are all equal. But those that are there for just being there (if that makes sense) and not superior. I think that if a message is poured into a piece of music, part of the composer is put into it as well. I often find that the music that I like the most is quite intense and emotional. Of course how well that effect is achieved is a different matter :P So, by sticking to that view, I would have to rate pieces by Mozart and Bach, as brilliantly composed as they are, as less superior in a sense. I find it difficult to sense much emotion in their music.

    However, there are some pieces of Jazz, such as Black and Tan fantasy, and indeed in other genres, where the music is there for a reason. It is there to deliver a message and make us feel. So i feel that although classical music is brilliant, I think that it's difficult to say that it is superior as to me it is not the 'nature' of the music that counts, more how well the message is conveyed. Just my personal opinion.

    I think this must be why I love Chopin so much :P
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    (Original post by Fletch)
    Welcome Sarah.
    That is certainly part of the equation. I was thinking more along the lines of does classical music have an inbuilt superiority so that any piece of classical music will, by its nature, be superior to a piece of Rhythm and Blues or Dubstep? But let the discussion commence and I'm sure the parameters will change.
    Given that the principles of rhythm, harmony, melody etc. within Western classical music have been developed over a series of...many centuries, it would make sense to call it the superior and most well-crafted genre from an 'academic' perspective.
    On the other hand, even though two pieces from two different genres may be "weighed up" against each other according to the normal elements of music (orchestration, handling of counterpoint, voice leading etc), and one may even trump the other in quality, there is still the nagging thought that music is a wholly personal experience, and so one quality (such as melody) may be more highly regarded than another, thereby causing no objectively 'better' genre.

    ( I feel the need to post some Berio right now also: )


    (...Sorry if the above points sound contradictory, by the way.)
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    What do people think of this list created by some American critic? http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011...mposers-top-10

    There are some rather controversial entries, and some very odd omissions. It's a very odd list, I think.
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    (Original post by Bezzler)
    What do people think of this list created by some American critic? http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011...mposers-top-10

    There are some rather controversial entries, and some very odd omissions. It's a very odd list, I think.
    I can see why he'd pick each one. I'd take Haydn over half of them though, and strange that Chopin isn't there. I'll post mine after exams... what would be yours?
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    (Original post by danadd9)
    Given that the principles of rhythm, harmony, melody etc. within Western classical music have been developed over a series of...many centuries, it would make sense to call it the superior and most well-crafted genre from an 'academic' perspective.
    On the other hand, even though two pieces from two different genres may be "weighed up" against each other according to the normal elements of music (orchestration, handling of counterpoint, voice leading etc), and one may even trump the other in quality, there is still the nagging thought that music is a wholly personal experience, and so one quality (such as melody) may be more highly regarded than another, thereby causing no objectively 'better' genre.


    (...Sorry if the above points sound contradictory, by the way.)
    minus the Berio

    You raise the additional point of whether all "classical" music is of the same merit or are some eras, genres, traditions "better" than others.

    ...and of course much of that European development of centuries ended up as an ingredient in C20th American music; black and white.
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    (Original post by sarah0sarah)
    Hmmm. I think that I believe that as long as the piece of music is there for a reason and not just for a pretty tune, than they are all equal. But those that are there for just being there (if that makes sense) and not superior. I think that if a message is poured into a piece of music, part of the composer is put into it as well. I often find that the music that I like the most is quite intense and emotional. Of course how well that effect is achieved is a different matter :P So, by sticking to that view, I would have to rate pieces by Mozart and Bach, as brilliantly composed as they are, as less superior in a sense. I find it difficult to sense much emotion in their music.

    However, there are some pieces of Jazz, such as Black and Tan fantasy, and indeed in other genres, where the music is there for a reason. It is there to deliver a message and make us feel. So i feel that although classical music is brilliant, I think that it's difficult to say that it is superior as to me it is not the 'nature' of the music that counts, more how well the message is conveyed. Just my personal opinion.

    I think this must be why I love Chopin so much :P
    You're right. Of course the emotional/philosophical content of music must be considered as well as its purpose - dancing, storytelling, worship, ceremony.
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    (Original post by Bezzler)
    What do people think of this list created by some American critic? http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011...mposers-top-10

    There are some rather controversial entries, and some very odd omissions. It's a very odd list, I think.
    "...does it reveal more about the tastes of the east-coast haute bourgeoisie than anything else?"

    I think it clearly does - an American list with no American composers :confused:
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    (Original post by Bezzler)
    What do people think of this list created by some American critic? http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011...mposers-top-10

    There are some rather controversial entries, and some very odd omissions. It's a very odd list, I think.
    That's an interesting list o.0 I'm surprised that Stravinsky and Verdi are on there :/
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    WHO PREFERS MY LIST
    ( Possibly not in order: )
    1 Bach
    2 Beethoven
    3 Mozart
    4 Wagner
    5 Monteverdi
    6 Haydn
    7 Palestrina
    8 Schoenberg
    9 Stockhausen
    10 Brahms
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    (Original post by danadd9)
    WHO PREFERS MY LIST
    ( Possibly not in order: )
    1 Bach
    2 Beethoven
    3 Mozart
    4 Wagner
    5 Monteverdi
    6 Haydn
    7 Palestrina
    8 Schoenberg
    9 Stockhausen
    10 Brahms
    Are we going for greatest composers or composers who we prefer?

    I haven't listened to anything by two people on that list. Shameful. :eek:
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    (Original post by sarah0sarah)
    Are we going for greatest composers or composers who we prefer?

    I haven't listened to anything by two people on that list. Shameful. :eek:
    Well, most influential and developed composers within their period - though I'm sure a few will disagree with my Liszt as it is!
    Who were the two, by the way?
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    (Original post by danadd9)
    Well, most influential and developed composers within their period - though I'm sure a few will disagree with my Liszt as it is!
    Who were the two, by the way?
    Hahahaaa nice pun :P Hmmmmmm. Influential, it would definitely have Mozart, Bach and Liszt on it, but I find it hard to draw up a list of them since they are all inspired off one another :P

    I haven't listened to Monteverdi or Palestrina :/
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    My list of preferred composers (not in any order) would probably be:

    Mozart
    Beethoven
    Vivaldi
    Mendelssohn
    Shostakovich
    J.S. Bach
    Chopin
    Haydn
    Copland
    Schubert


    Although it was incredibly hard to decide, and there were loads of others that I would have loved to have included!
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    (Original post by danadd9)
    WHO PREFERS MY LIST
    ( Possibly not in order: )
    1 Bach
    2 Beethoven
    3 Mozart
    4 Wagner
    5 Monteverdi
    6 Haydn
    7 Palestrina
    8 Schoenberg
    9 Stockhausen
    10 Brahms
    1. Beethoven (most Beethoven, particularly Moonlight Sonata and Symphony 9)
    2. Schubert (Serenade, Ave Maria, Unfinished Symphony)
    3. Saint Saens (Organ Symphony)
    4. Smetana (Ma Vlast/Moldau- possibly best song- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmZHL...eature=related)
    6. Pachelbel (Canon)
    7. Grieg (lots from Peer Gynt)
    8. Mendelssohn (Hebredies I think is the name)
    9. Prokofiev (Montagues and Capulets)
    10. maybe Strauss' Zarathustra or that one piece by Haydn that, in a part, resembles Moonlight Sonata
    (Omitting Mozart because hearing his tunes as polyphonic ringtones has given me a dislike for them)

    As for the rest, they are generally based on individual pieces.

    also insert Jupiter by Holst
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    Suprised no one has rachmaninoff/tavener - also Tallis should be on all of these - my personal favourite is William Harris, unfortunatly his output was very small..
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    Rachmaninov, there's one I didn't think of! *slaps self*

    Anyone have any tips for my situation. Currently playing Schubert No.2 of D.946 but playing it in a compotition. My thirds in the C minor middle (1st) section are a mess sometimes but other times are fine. I think I've figured out it's because I'm tensing up because I'm very nervous about clearing the thirds.

    Anyone have any advice on how to banish negative thoughts from my head permenantly... by saturday?
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    Favourite composers :

    1. Chopin
    2. Porkofiev
    3. Liszt
    4. Rachmaninoff
    5. Brahms
    6. Beethoven
    7.Schubert
    8. Saint-Saens
    9.Mozart
    10.Shostakovich
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    (Original post by sarah0sarah)
    Favourite composers :

    1. Chopin
    2. Porkofiev
    3. Liszt
    4. Rachmaninoff
    5. Brahms
    6. Beethoven
    7.Schubert
    8. Saint-Saens
    9.Mozart
    10.Shostakovich
    There's a meaty one... You can really get your teeth into his music... :awesome:

    Spoiler:
    Show
    Also, his music is a swine to play.
 
 
 
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