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    (Original post by BlackHawk)

    Fair enough, you think you're as good as people who have sponsership, and good luck to you.
    Flyboy you have to be a team player when you want to be a pilot because there will be more than one of you in that cockpit in a commercial airliner and you cannot think that you are better than the others.
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    Firstly im not asking Wzz to justify himself. Im just interested.

    Also i know you have to be part of a team...obviously. BUT eurofighter...im not saying that i think im better than other people. I think that ive as good a chance as other people (who have got sponsership) to get it.

    Also (not out of justification just interest) how did you train Wzz? was it funded yourself and then you applied for a job or did you get help somewhere?
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    (Original post by flyboy123)
    although ryanair (who are a low budget airline) may pay that (although i doubt it) most ailines pay a LOT more
    A lot of airlines do pay a lot more. If you doubt Ryanair pay this, check your facts again. While other airlines might pay a lot more, do you have any idea about the qualifications required to join them? The time to command? The rostering? The disruption? British Airways, for example, still pay rather well. However, the hassle and difficulty of working for them means it's no longer a world of milk and honey to say the least.

    Virgin Atlantic are still high payers, and have a better lifestyle available, but won't touch you without at least 2500hrs and an ATPL. Who's paying for your type rating and line training to get to that stage?

    (Original post by flyboy123)
    Ok im sorry i may well have got the amount of years that you have to stay with the RAF wrong. I did say that was what i thought and i admit it was just a random idea i had which apparently is wrong so i am sorry but you will leave with some qualifications.
    Name one? You don't leave with any qualifications. Regardless of what you've flown, you'll leave with nothing more than hours and ability.

    (Original post by flyboy123)
    As youre so intent on peopl e doing reserch i have done some. And have discovered that your example of Ryanair is a very biased one. They are the lowest paying airline which is why they can have such cheap tickets. Apparently they have even had court sessions about thier pay and the fact that they are patronised and never paid overtime. (dont say that im an idiot if this is wrong but this is what other information says).
    Ryanair are the lowest paying airline. They are not alone, and all other mid range airlines have started a slow but noticeable downward shift in all their terms and conditions. New contracts are bad. New salaries are down. New rosters are busier and more distruptive. Time off is harder to come by. Time to command is massively increased. Entry requirements have soared. Ryanair's pay model is genuinely dangerous due to the proportion of pay made up by sector pay, which should be illegal. There are plenty of other flying jobs which will pay a very small amount, but still require a frozen ATPL, plus a huge bond to pay line training. So you pay £50 000 for your training then the airline make you repay a further £30 000 for line training... then pay you £30 000pa? Perhaps one day you'll make it to BA, but with the hassle and complaints from so many of their pilots, and the lengthy time to command, it's almost not worth it. Except you'll need the cash to pay back your first employer...

    (Original post by flyboy123)
    If you want to use extemme facts then ill start posting Cathays salaries ok?
    Cathay Pacific salaries start at around £38 000pa. However, you MUST HAVE AN ATPL, 3000 HOURS, AND 1000 HOURS MULTI ENGINE MULTI CREW. Where do you plan to have this from? They won't sponsor you; and you're looking at substantially more than £100 000 to pay for even the first 500-odd hours on top of your ATPL! While a Cathay training captain might earn £125 000, how many of them do you think they have? How would you plan to become one? Who's paying for your licence? Your training? Your multi engine time?

    As an RAF pilot, you're earning £38 000pa within a couple of years of leaving officer training if you're a graduate. You might never earn £125 000, but the flying's a lot more fun and you don't have to pay for any of it!

    (Original post by flyboy123)
    Are you really a pilot Wzz? if so where did you train? and also who do you work for? Im a fair way on the way to becoming one hopefully going through sponsership (yes i know its rare but i know people who have done it and i think im as good as them)
    Yes I am, and quite frankly the rest is none of your business. A quick flick through the forums would reveal I'm an RAF pilot. A fair way to becoming one? I wouldn't say you can justifiably say that until you at least have a frozen ATPL; that puts you about 20% qualified to join one of the airlines I mention above.

    Good luck. With your demonstrated attitude, I don't think you'll pass many CRM courses.
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    (Original post by Wzz)

    Good luck. With your demonstrated attitude, I don't think you'll pass many CRM courses.
    If anyone has the attitude, it's you.

    He's just finished his gcse's.... allow him.
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    ws thinking of being a pilot, but its too dangerous, and it really messes up your body clock, and i thought twice about it; decided the health implications are not worth the job, thought it does pay very good - it can get very stressful,

    PK
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    Well i have no idea why youre being so agressive about me being interested about where you trained and who you work for. Im just interested.

    I know for a fact that cathay are actually training so pilots from scratch. They wouldnt have dreamt of doing this 10 years ago but they are doing it now and they have a lot of jobs open at the moment.

    Also your facts about hours are wrong im sorry to say. I know that cathay will accept pilots with 1000 hours (total fixed wing flying) and they are one of the hardest and most stringent airlines. There is no way that Virgin demand 2500 hours.

    Finally im sorry that you hate flying so much but i personally love it and dont care about your "odd" facts, all i know is that i will have a career in aviation unless something goes very wrong. If you hate the aviation industry as much as you to appear to then i suggest you leave and go work at tescos.
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    (Original post by tastybread)
    If anyone has the attitude, it's you.

    He's just finished his gcse's.... allow him.
    Someone types out a lengthy reponse to a poster including verified and correct information and you have the gall to stick your tuppance in? So he finished his GCSEs? And? That is no excuse for ignorance or becoming bias when looking at ones career.
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    (Original post by flyboy123)
    Well i have no idea why youre being so agressive about me being interested about where you trained and who you work for. Im just interested.

    I know for a fact that cathay are actually training so pilots from scratch. They wouldnt have dreamt of doing this 10 years ago but they are doing it now and they have a lot of jobs open at the moment.

    Also your facts about hours are wrong im sorry to say. I know that cathay will accept pilots with 1000 hours (total fixed wing flying) and they are one of the hardest and most stringent airlines. There is no way that Virgin demand 2500 hours.

    Finally im sorry that you hate flying so much but i personally love it and dont care about your "odd" facts, all i know is that i will have a career in aviation unless something goes very wrong. If you hate the aviation industry as much as you to appear to then i suggest you leave and go work at tescos.
    I don't think resorting to petty insults like a child has anything to do with it, do you? You seem to know you facts, so fine, let it be and continue on your way with them. Hopefully they will stand you in good stead and you won't be disappointed like the thousands of people across the country. You will not listen to two people here who are offered advice, one of whom is very much immersed in the aviation industry in the role of pilot. Which, as I may point out, is your final goal. (In case you forgot amongst the bickering) A quick glance around the careers forum may also point you to the fact that said pilot worked in recruitment. I would say, on the whole, if I were looking on this thread for information I know who I would put my faith into for the correct information. So please remember it is not just you who reads these threads, but many people looking to become pilots.
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    (Original post by tastybread)
    If anyone has the attitude, it's you.

    He's just finished his gcse's.... allow him.
    Allow him what? To go on constantly about a subject he's getting his facts wrong in?

    At least my attitude is backed up by experience and knowledge, both first and second hand. Other people will read this, and there's no point in setting people off on a career as difficult as commercial aviation without the correct facts in their laps.
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    alright alright.

    but this response " Good luck. With your demonstrated attitude, I don't think you'll pass many CRM courses. "

    is a bit off the hook
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    (Original post by flyboy123)
    Well i have no idea why youre being so agressive about me being interested about where you trained and who you work for. Im just interested.
    15 seconds of wandering around the careers forum, doing a search, or looking in the armed forces section would reveal that I'm a fast jet pilot in the RAF.

    (Original post by flyboy123)
    I know for a fact that cathay are actually training so pilots from scratch. They wouldnt have dreamt of doing this 10 years ago but they are doing it now and they have a lot of jobs open at the moment.
    Have you read any of Cathay's recent literature? Their freight arm is recruiting a little more than usual right now, but the posted requirement for entry as a First Officer is 3000 hours. Have a look at the Professional Pilots' Job Network:

    PPJN Cathay Page

    As it says in clear text, the recruitment situation is positive, but look at it from a recruiter's point of view. There are HUNDREDS of pilots with frozen ATPLs hanging around UNEMPLOYED right now. Why take an ab-initio pilot when you can take one of these guys, who's ready to go straight into a type rating scheme? One of these guys who is so desperate to get started he'll probably allow you to bond that type rating scheme so you can take the cost of it out of his salary?

    Have a look on PPRuNe. Read about the number of qualified people with no jobs. Read the "Terms and Endearments" forum, talking about the decline in pay and conditions. Read about the crap rostering, the hassles with management, the fact that even a fATPL from a decent school isn't enough to get you a job anymore.

    (Original post by flyboy123)
    your facts about hours are wrong im sorry to say. I know that cathay will accept pilots with 1000 hours (total fixed wing flying) and they are one of the hardest and most stringent airlines. There is no way that Virgin demand 2500 hours.
    On PPJN you'll see Cathay want 3000 hours plus 1000 multi engine to consider you for a First Officer position; it's there in black and white. BA certainly won't touch you without an ATPL. Easyjet will take you through the paired CTC Wings scheme they run, but that involves you taking out a £60 000 loan before you even sit in a Cessna!

    On PPRuNe, you'll find a terribly nice chap who left the RAF to fly for Virgin; and he'll happily tell you that without 2500 hours total time there's no way they'll look at you. Why? Because there are dozens and dozens of pilots with that amount of hours desperate to move to Virgin.

    I have tens of friends who fly. Some in the RAF like me, some for airlines as diverse as British European, Easyjet, BA, Virgin, Delta, and British Midland. I know dozens of RAF pilots approaching their initial retirement points who are dealing with airline recruitment as we speak. Unless you have some proper evidence to back up your claims, stop trying to tell everyone mine are wrong!

    I'm sorry if you're young and impressionable and this isn't what you want to hear. If someone had told me ar your age that the RAF were going to stop recrtuiting or stop flying jets, I would have reacted perhaps a little like you have. However, these are all facts; saying you refuse to believe Virgin require 2500 hours doesn't really stand up. Why do you refuse to believe it? I've been told by a Virgin captain that I needed 2500 hours total time before even qualified to apply, never mind get a job.

    (Original post by flyboy123)
    Finally im sorry that you hate flying so much but i personally love it and dont care about your "odd" facts, all i know is that i will have a career in aviation unless something goes very wrong. If you hate the aviation industry as much as you to appear to then i suggest you leave and go work at tescos.
    I have no love for the aviation industry for the reasons discussed at length in this thread. Airlines like Ryanair are killing off the days of the professional pilot, and in a lot of jobs you really are no longer anything more than a bus driver. However, a London tube driver earns more than most First Officers, and didn't have to pay £60 000 of his own money to get the job! There are some good jobs out there, but they're not handed out on a plate. Is it worth years of getting the last pick of the roster, putting up with crap pay, and accepting upwards of £60 000 in debt to stand a chance of getting one of those good jobs? If you think so, good luck. I wouldn't put my family through that. The stories of Ryanair captains having to give their second officers money for dinner aren't made up; I know one of the people that happened to. He had less money than he'd make as a labourer; and don't get me started on their sector pay deals!

    Lastly, I absolutely love flying; but that's probably because I do a job which involves nothing but raw, pure flying. If you think transitting at FL350 in the middle of the night is "flying," then maybe you should have looked at joining the RAF instead. But that's another subject entirely
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    Virgin Atlantic PPJN Page

    In case you're interested; have a look at that. Virgin "say you need 2500-3000 hours" for First Officer entry, but "you need more!"

    "Type rating a big advantage for the A340." Do you know what's involved in getting that? Basically, you need to be a qualfied A340 FO on another airline to be confident.

    Some quotes from people in the know about joining Virgin....

    "Guys on 125's with 2400 hrs are being told " Come back when you have 2500 hrs""

    "If I remember rightly from the BALPA conference Virgin's requirements were 3500hrs just for them to even bother reading your CV. And those 3500hrs preferably on large jet with EFIS. Military pilots with that number of hours would be considered though."

    "To even qualify to apply for a job with a bottom-of-the-pool commercial operator, you would need to take the ATPL ground examinations, carry out the CPL/IR flying course and skill tests, undergo an MCC course, and probably do so kind of LOFT course. Then you'd probably have to pay for the type rating and line training."

    "Get 3000 hours on relevant aircraft types (or fast jets) and the appropriate licences and courses, then you might qualify to apply to us. At the moment, we employ very few with less than 5000 hours and those are mainly on A340/330/320s."


    The last two quotes are from a bloke who flies long haul with them and is involved in recruitment.

    Fancy telling me I haven't got my facts straight now?
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    (Original post by tastybread)
    alright alright.

    but this response " Good luck. With your demonstrated attitude, I don't think you'll pass many CRM courses. "

    is a bit off the hook
    Part of becoming a pilot is the attitude. Would you want to share a cabin with someone who is argumentative, stubborn, and unpredicitable? Wzz was right in saying that as it is a vital part of being a pilot, not just the qualifications.

    This is why people should not jump in and aggrivate situations that they simply know nothing about.
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    ok no worries.

    Hehe i know little about this but you know what'd make it easy? Win £50,000 and train for your atpl or whatever it is.

    Tah Dah!!!
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    Considering what you get when you join an average airline with an ATPL, I can think of better things to spend £50k on anyway...! Get a PPL and a large share in an aircraft yourself; fly for fun
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    Aside the fact that whilst reading this thread its been a little off putting to becoming a pilot. I have been looking at what it takes to become a pilot, i'm going to go to a University but i'm not sure what to study, at Brunel Uni there is a course called "Aviation Engineering and Pilot Studies BEng and MEng", altho i'm not too sure if this is too specific, by which i mean that if for some reason i do not want to become a pilot will this course be good for anything else? Would doing a more broader course be better? i am Currently just starting my A2's.
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    Most degrees like that result in you having a PPL plus a few aviation-related and engineering courses, plus a slightly better understanding of aviation.

    Asides from furnishing you with your first few hours, it'll be no use as far as a flying career goes. If it gave you a fATPL, fair enough, but really there aren't many jobs for people with less than 1500 hours and a full unfrozen ATPL. It'll be a starter, nothing more.
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    Can you please suggest a course which would be helpful with becoming a pilot but is not too specific as to close other career options, I was thinking something around the science area as for A level i'm doing Chemisty, biology, Physics and possibly maths.
    I've found this site which says that i do not need to take a specified course for aviation, http://www.jetcareers.com/college.htm .Can I ask what course you took just whether it was specific or not.
    thanks.
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    Nothing will help you. Do a science-based course if you want to have a better grasp of aerodynamics and principles of flight. Do an engineering course or aeronautics if you want to pursue that sort of thing to an in-depth degree. I did a physical science degree; nothing to do with aviation, but it stood me in good stead for groundschools.
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    (Original post by Wzz)
    Nothing will help you. Do a science-based course if you want to have a better grasp of aerodynamics and principles of flight. Do an engineering course or aeronautics if you want to pursue that sort of thing to an in-depth degree. I did a physical science degree; nothing to do with aviation, but it stood me in good stead for groundschools.
    i thawt you did a psych degree?
 
 
 
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