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Grammar schools [why don't labour like them?] watch

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    Congratulations to the labour party! Not only are you trying to group talented individuals with "chavs" in the classroom, but you also have screwed up the chances of intelligent pupils from poor background getting into a decent school!

    Whats your problem- why dont you like the grammar schools? Isnt it fair..........? I think its extremely fair, if you are clever then you get put into a better school and if you aren't you dont. I thought you would like this system, because it benefits the poorer backgrounds.

    Anyone from the labour party like to explain their actions?

    Please dont tell me "oh but its not fair on children", because lifes full of unfairness, atleast Grammar schools try to eliminate the pupils family background.
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    well... coming from labour where at last half of the parliamentary party went to grammar schools or private schools, are we surprised?
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    (Original post by ant87)
    well... coming from labour where at last half of the parliamentary party went to grammar schools or private schools, are we surprised?
    yes i know what you mean! They're complete hypocrits! They only want more "poorer" students at oxford now that they've already been! If i recall Tony Blair didnt disclose what grades his son nicky got this year for LHM, but they did with Ewan (who went to bristol) , hmmmm wonder why??
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    At least with comprehensive schools we are achieving equality. The system fails everybody equally
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    I go to a grammar school and I am not for them.

    I think by losing the top 25% of the population from the comprehensive system you loose the varied social spectrum (as most ppl in grammar schools are middle class. I mean no offense here, it is just something I have noticed). Also the ppl who are in the comprehensive system are less motivated due to less competition and generally behaviour is worse than in other areas of the country.
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    (Original post by *steph 247*)
    I go to a grammar school and I am not for them.

    I think by losing the top 25% of the population from the comprehensive system you loose the varied social spectrum (as most ppl in grammar schools are middle class. I mean no offense here, it is just something I have noticed). Also the ppl who are in the comprehensive system are less motivated due to less competition and generally behaviour is worse than in other areas of the country.
    with respect, you *can* say that, because you don't know what it's like to go to a truly appalling comprehensive where a good grammar school would be your only shot at a good education.
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    (Original post by *steph 247*)
    I go to a grammar school and I am not for them.

    I think by losing the top 25% of the population from the comprehensive system you loose the varied social spectrum (as most ppl in grammar schools are middle class. I mean no offense here, it is just something I have noticed). Also the ppl who are in the comprehensive system are less motivated due to less competition and generally behaviour is worse than in other areas of the country.
    Well if we have a single school system then do you agree with streaming by ability? I didn't think so. How then do we educate people of different abilities and interests in the same place?
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    (Original post by ant87)
    with respect, you *can* say that, because you don't know what it's like to go to a truly appalling comprehensive where a good grammar school would be your only shot at a good education.
    Well said.
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    So this is really just a class war thing isn't it? That is really unfortunate that we would sacrifice the education of the nation's children for an empty and impossible "ideal" of "equality". Sure we are all equal but we are not all the same.
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    (Original post by ant87)
    with respect, you *can* say that, because you don't know what it's like to go to a truly appalling comprehensive where a good grammar school would be your only shot at a good education.
    maybe so, but is it really fair that people get separated out at 11? I know plenty of ppl from the comprehensives who are BRILLIANT academically but have developed later than others so didn't get into grammar schools. They are hard done by too, maybe worse because of the lower standard of educaton in the comps than in other non grammar system areas. (by which I mean less motivation generally due to the absence of the top 25% and most of the good teachers wanting to teach in grammar schools)
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    (Original post by Chiron)
    Well if we have a single school system then do you agree with streaming by ability? I didn't think so. How then do we educate people of different abilities and interests in the same place?
    I think I do actually, everyone still gets taught at the level they need and get to be exposed to all other abilities and backgrounds, which we do not get here. I am not arguing this as a class issue btw, I am simply stating what I have observed. There are obviously people from all different classes in grammar schools, but unfortunatly there is a middle class majority.
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    (Original post by Chiron)
    At least with comprehensive schools we are achieving equality. The system fails everybody equally
    quite an accurate statement.
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    I go to a Voluntary aided school, which has a mixture of abilities, shall we say, and our results are the best of the non-private schools in the area. we are tipped to top the 80% A*-C barrier this year, so no pressure on my year! I dont think what type of school one goes to matters, I believe it is the quality of education one receives there, and the effectiveness of the Pastoral/Discipline Plan, as well as the Anti-Bullying, Anti-Drug policies in force. My school adopts a no-nonsense approach to both things, and those who are looking as though they will fail their GCSEs are entered into compulsorary revision classes, and they all pass with C's at least.
    In conclusion, it is not whether one pays for an education or not that matters, but merely the quality of the teachers at the school.
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    Even comphrensive/secondary schools make some streaming of pupils by ability. The Labour Party is for the continuation of Grammar Schools.
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    (Original post by Chiron)
    At least with comprehensive schools we are achieving equality. The system fails everybody equally
    How are grammar schools not equal? You could say that all new houses built should be identical so that poorer people will not feel bad when they see massive new houses built. Some parts of life are unfair- HOWEVER, with grammar schools, no matter what your background is you have the chance to do very well in life! If you abolish them poorer intelligent students will not.

    In addition to this, will equality produce the best for our society? If you are talking about equality in its literal meaning do you really believe that the likes of "chavs" would/should lead the same lives/have the same education as those who are more intelligent?

    In economics equality is not possible. If everyone had the same money how would we differentiate who can afford the ferrari and who cant. Theres always got to be richer and poorer people (and the heavilly taxed/discriminated middle class lol).
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    (Original post by *steph 247*)
    maybe so, but is it really fair that people get separated out at 11? I know plenty of ppl from the comprehensives who are BRILLIANT academically but have developed later than others so didn't get into grammar schools. They are hard done by too, maybe worse because of the lower standard of educaton in the comps than in other non grammar system areas. (by which I mean less motivation generally due to the absence of the top 25% and most of the good teachers wanting to teach in grammar schools)
    Is it fair when someones wins the lottery?
    Is it fair when someone else gets a job?
    Is it fair when someone else gets hit by a car?

    Life is full of unfairness. The 11+ highlights those children with academic potential who are willing to work hard and achieve much.
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    (Original post by *steph 247*)
    I go to a grammar school and I am not for them.

    I think by losing the top 25% of the population from the comprehensive system you loose the varied social spectrum (as most ppl in grammar schools are middle class. I mean no offense here, it is just something I have noticed). Also the ppl who are in the comprehensive system are less motivated due to less competition and generally behaviour is worse than in other areas of the country.
    I disagree.

    1. "Most people in grammar schools are middle class" Not necessarily, I'd say it was quite an even split in my school.

    2. Even if they are, it should be based on getting the most intelligent pupils together, not getting the most lower class pupils together.

    If there are more bright middle class kids than bright lower class kids then so be it. This whole favouring the lower classes in education whether or not they deserve it thing has gone too far imo.

    3. "The people in the comprehensive system are less motivated". This is probably true and is a difficult situation, but it's surely better to make sure the brightest kids don't lose their motivation by sending them to grammar schools than sticking them in with the chavs as well and making sure no-one gets a decent education?

    Labour's dislike of grammar schools is one of the reasons I vote Conservative.
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    (Original post by clogdor)
    I disagree.

    1. "Most people in grammar schools are middle class" Not necessarily, I'd say it was quite an even split in my school.

    2. Even if they are, it should be based on getting the most intelligent pupils together, not getting the most lower class pupils together.

    If there are more bright middle class kids than bright lower class kids then so be it. This whole favouring the lower classes in education whether or not they deserve it thing has gone too far imo.

    3. "The people in the comprehensive system are less motivated". This is probably true and is a difficult situation, but it's surely better to make sure the brightest kids don't lose their motivation by sending them to grammar schools than sticking them in with the chavs as well and making sure no-one gets a decent education?

    Labour's dislike of grammar schools is one of the reasons I vote Conservative.
    pm me in a weekn i'll rep you
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    (Original post by *steph 247*)
    I go to a grammar school and I am not for them.

    I think by losing the top 25% of the population from the comprehensive system you loose the varied social spectrum (as most ppl in grammar schools are middle class. I mean no offense here, it is just something I have noticed). Also the ppl who are in the comprehensive system are less motivated due to less competition and generally behaviour is worse than in other areas of the country.
    i go to grammar school too, and i dont find that most people are middle class. i think that kids who have the ability to achieve better should be in schools among people who are of equal skill to them. and i think it makes you a little more humble, well, it did me, anyway, because no matter how well you are doing, its not likely that you are top of the year/school, and you always know theres someone smarter than you. i like the fact that anyone can go to them, too, as long as they have passed the 11+. and i dont get your argument- because behaviour is worse in comprehensives, kids who would be in grammar schools should go to comps? how would that help?
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    (Original post by clogdor)
    I disagree.

    1. "Most people in grammar schools are middle class" Not necessarily, I'd say it was quite an even split in my school.

    2. Even if they are, it should be based on getting the most intelligent pupils together, not getting the most lower class pupils together.

    If there are more bright middle class kids than bright lower class kids then so be it. This whole favouring the lower classes in education whether or not they deserve it thing has gone too far imo.

    3. "The people in the comprehensive system are less motivated". This is probably true and is a difficult situation, but it's surely better to make sure the brightest kids don't lose their motivation by sending them to grammar schools than sticking them in with the chavs as well and making sure no-one gets a decent education?

    Labour's dislike of grammar schools is one of the reasons I vote Conservative.
    I seem to recall reading that Margaret Thatcher, as secretary of state for education, was responsible for the closure of more grammar schools than any other in history. I also recall that many grammar schools were closed under the last Tory government. If they were so desperate to 'save' the grammar school they had eighteen years in which to do it.

    You appear to have a rather polarised view of the world. Ever heard of late developers?
 
 
 
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