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    (Original post by LC01)
    As well as the white christians he killed, they are just as important.
    And did he round up these white christians en masse and take them to concentration camps and have them either worked to death or murdered?
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    (Original post by juueru_chou)
    And did he round up these white christians en masse and take them to concentration camps and have them either worked to death or murdered?
    yeah, he did actually. Did that to the rebellious priests of the Confessional Church, I believe.
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    (Original post by TheVlad)
    yeah, he did actually. Did that to the rebellious priests of the Confessional Church, I believe.
    You see, these preists rebelled against Hitler to envoke his wrath and could have submitted to him, they knew their actions might result in their deaths, but the Jews were innocent of any crime and were just rounded up, men, women and children, and shipped off to work or death camps.
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    The creed or colour of Hitler's victims is irrelevant (not that anyone suggested otherwise in the first place, I'm looking at you LCO1). They all suffered, and their suffering counts.

    And Vlad, good point! If there's one thing the USSR could've learnt from the Nazis, it's that if you're going to brutalise Europe, you should at least be smartly dressed.
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    (Original post by juueru_chou)
    You see, these preists rebelled against Hitler to envoke his wrath and could have submitted to him, they knew their actions might result in their deaths, but the Jews were innocent of any crime and were just rounded up, men, women and children, and shipped off to work or death camps.
    What about the whitye people that were sent to concentration camps for being in different political parties, were they not innocent?
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    (Original post by Iago)
    The creed or colour of Hitler's victims is irrelevant (not that anyone suggested otherwise in the first place, I'm looking at you LCO1). They all suffered, and their suffering counts.

    And Vlad, good point! If there's one thing the USSR could've learnt from the Nazis, it's that if you're going to brutalise Europe, you should at least be smartly dressed.
    If there's one thing the USSR could've learnt from the Nazis, it's that if you're going to brutalise Europe, you should at least be smartly dressed
    Well the soviet holocaust was much worse thsan the NAZI one.
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    Well being run over by a train is much worse than being run over by a car!

    Being eaten by locusts is much worse than being torn apart by a bear!

    The Scissor Sisters are much worse than The Spice Girls!

    When discussing evil/terrible things, there comes a point where it is totally pointless and meaningless to start measuring 'amounts of evil' (as if there is such a thing). This applies doubly when talking of genocides and purges and so forth. The Nazis' holocaust and USSR's purges were both unspeakably evil, horrible acts. I would add more negative adjectives but what's the point? We all know what I'm reffering to, and no amount of words can express such utter depravity.

    Any talk beyond mutual condemnation (such as 'so and so's genocide was worse than X's genocide etc. etc.) is always intended to merely make a cheap political point, rather than further the condemnation. It cheapens the events and insults the victims, turning two horrible occurances into a warped sort of political competetition. Anyone who states that soviet atrocities were worse than Nazi atrocities is only revealing a cowardly sympathy for the Nazi atrocities that they dare not express directly.

    But then what are we to expect from an outspoken BNP supporter?

    Stop it.

    (Exactly the reverse of this applies to those communists who continually talk about how the Nazi holocaust was worse than the USSR's activites because the former was driven by racial hatred whereas the latter was not - I'm not being partisan here)
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    (Original post by Iago)
    The Scissor Sisters are much worse than The Spice Girls!
    You little... :mad:
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    LC01 I dont think anyone is trying to make the point that any of the victims of the Nazis were less innocent or suffered less or whatever. I think the point being made is that the persecution of the jews was perhaps more sweeping than that of some other groups. I agree with Iago that trying to differentiate between holocausts, genocides purges etc is ridiculous.
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    (Original post by Iago)
    Well being run over by a train is much worse than being run over by a car!

    Being eaten by locusts is much worse than being torn apart by a bear!

    The Scissor Sisters are much worse than The Spice Girls!

    When discussing evil/terrible things, there comes a point where it is totally pointless and meaningless to start measuring 'amounts of evil' (as if there is such a thing). This applies doubly when talking of genocides and purges and so forth. The Nazis' holocaust and USSR's purges were both unspeakably evil, horrible acts. I would add more negative adjectives but what's the point? We all know what I'm reffering to, and no amount of words can express such utter depravity.

    Any talk beyond mutual condemnation (such as 'so and so's genocide was worse than X's genocide etc. etc.) is always intended to merely make a cheap political point, rather than further the condemnation. It cheapens the events and insults the victims, turning two horrible occurances into a warped sort of political competetition. Anyone who states that soviet atrocities were worse than Nazi atrocities is only revealing a cowardly sympathy for the Nazi atrocities that they dare not express directly.

    But then what are we to expect from an outspoken BNP supporter?

    Stop it.

    (Exactly the reverse of this applies to those communists who continually talk about how the Nazi holocaust was worse than the USSR's activites because the former was driven by racial hatred whereas the latter was not - I'm not being partisan here)
    Anyone who states that soviet atrocities were worse than Nazi atrocities is only revealing a cowardly sympathy for the Nazi atrocities that they dare not express directly.
    No I certainly was not, just pointing out Stalin killed far more people than Hitler.I also think its wrong that only one is ever rememberd and has its own rememberance day.
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    OK, perhaps I went overboard at you there, LCO1. I apologise, my arguments with you should be derived from what you say, rather than from assumptions dervived from your political allegiance.

    Nonetheless, I still stand by my argument. There are many who it applies to, though LCO1 is not one of them and I regret having in anger made such a claim.

    But - just because Stalin killed more people than Hitler (thanks only to circumstance) does not mean we are entitled to say that his purges were worse than the latter's holocaust. 'Bigger' and 'worse' are entirely different things. Both were....evil beyond words. Point out that one was bigger if you want...but the fact is really quite irrelevant.

    And the purges are remembered. The BBC this year had a day of rememberance for them. And many nations do have rememberance days for them (do we? I don't know). What is certain is that both are remembered by most, and both are taught about (children in history classses these days are taught far more about the purges than they are about the holocaust, incidentally). This is all that is really important - to remember and teach. Official 'rememberance days' are ultimately inconsequential. We have a rememberance day for soldiers who died in the World Wars, but not for soldiers who died in the Boer War - does this amount to a claim that the deaths of the former are more tragic/worth remembering than the latter? Of course not - it's just that in practise we don't have the time nor resources to 'officially' recognise and honour and remember all that we perhaps should.

    But we don't need such officiallity. We just need to remember in our own hearts and minds. You recognise and remember the horror of Stalin' purges. Good, I appluad this. Let this be enough for you, don't worry about what the government/society is doing.

    (Original post by TheVlad)
    You little... :mad:
    Actually, at this point I'd like to retract all of my previous statements and make the point that The Scissor Sisters are probably worse than The Nazis
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    (Original post by juueru_chou)
    And did he round up these white christians en masse and take them to concentration camps and have them either worked to death or murdered?
    Yes, Esterwegen an example. Although not necessarily because they were Christian.
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    (Original post by juueru_chou)
    And did he round up these white christians en masse and take them to concentration camps and have them either worked to death or murdered?
    oh I just remembered, the NAZIs sent Russian slavs to concetration camps too.
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    (Original post by Iago)
    The creed or colour of Hitler's victims is irrelevant (not that anyone suggested otherwise in the first place, I'm looking at you LCO1). They all suffered, and their suffering counts.
    I think that was the point LC01 was making.
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    (Original post by Iago)
    Anyone who states that soviet atrocities were worse than Nazi atrocities is only revealing a cowardly sympathy for the Nazi atrocities that they dare not express directly.

    But then what are we to expect from an outspoken BNP supporter?
    Hang on, in terms of figures it is quite easy to draw a distinction and come to the conclusion that one set of events caused more death than another. It doesnt really serve much of a purpose but its still possible and in the case where we have members posting with the hammer and sickle as their avatar, suggesting that LC01 is a nazi sympathiser because he happens to believe the death and slaughter of Soviet communism is measurably worse than that carried out by the Nazis, is to demonise beyond all proportion, especially when such a basis is tenuous to say the least.

    What is more ironic is that in such direct opposition to perceived attempts to cheapen the victims of the holocaust, you make these kind of comments, "If there's one thing the USSR could've learnt from the Nazis, it's that if you're going to brutalise Europe, you should at least be smartly dressed". "The Scissor Sisters are probably worse than The Nazis"
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    I think that was the point LC01 was making.
    If so, what on Earth was he responding to? Who claimed anything to the contrary? It's perfectly reasonable to cite the suffering of the Jews as an exmaple of Nazi cruelty (which was what was being done by the previous poster). Why then respond by emphasising the suffering of white people?

    Forgive me for looking for alterior motives. Maybe I was mistaken in the case of LCO1, but this kind of thing is often just thinly veiled racism. I hear it all the time.
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    (Original post by Iago)
    If so, what on Earth was he responding to?
    Myself, I cited Jewish victims. If LC01 feels non-Jewish victims also needed recognition then I dont dispute his point.

    Why then respond by emphasising the suffering of white people?
    Why not?

    Forgive me for looking for alterior motives.
    No I wont, especially when this search is the basis for personal accusations that I have to sit and read.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Hang on, in terms of figures it is quite easy to draw a distinction and come to the conclusion that one set of events caused more death than another. It doesnt really serve much of a purpose but its still possible and in the case where we have members posting with the hammer and sickle as their avatar, suggesting that LC01 is a nazi sympathiser because he happens to believe the death and slaughter of Soviet communism is measurably worse than that carried out by the Nazis, is to demonise beyond all proportion, especially when such a basis is tenuous to say the least.
    1) He didn't say that one was bigger than the other, he said that one was worse than the other. And even if he had merely said that one was bigger than the other, this fact is so utterly irrelevant that it perfectly reasonable to assume that there is some kind of evaluation of the two atrocities being pushed through on the sly

    2) I sympathise with LCO1's frustration at Soviet sympathisers. But I would also like to point out that LCO1 adornes his posts with BNP symbolism and propaganda. The BNP, while not a Nazi party as such, are certainly a deeply racist party and are quasi-National Socialists to say the least. Crazy me though, thinking that he might be attempting to emphasise the suffering of whites over non-whites!

    What is more ironic is that in such direct opposition to perceived attempts to cheapen the victims of the holocaust, you make these kind of comments, "If there's one thing the USSR could've learnt from the Nazis, it's that if you're going to brutalise Europe, you should at least be smartly dressed". "The Scissor Sisters are probably worse than The Nazis"
    Oh please. Now you're just being argumentative for the sake of it. Those two statements are obviously jokes, and were not intended to be serious in any way. If you have been offended by them, then you have misunderstood them. I refuse to take seriously anyone who takes such harmless banter seriously.

    The kind of cheapening I am talking about is the kind that arises from serious arguments, not obvious non-serious jokes. I hardly left my opinion on the Nazi and Soviet atrocities ambigious in my posts.
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    I've already apologised to LCO1 and retracted my comments about him, why are you pursuing the matter so aggressively? What's the chip on your shoulder?

    I wasn't geniunely asking for you forgiveness. Do you not understand the basic nuances of English? I was being sarcastic. I do not need or desire your forgiveness. Nor have you had to sit and read any of my posts. How self-important can someone get?

    Bah, this discussion is pointless. It's just making everyone angry. Look - Nazism = terrible. We don't disagree on this point. I, like you and LCO1, sympathise with and recognise the siffering of all Hitler's victims. Black, white, jewish, homosexual, slav etc. etc. Equal evil all around.

    What is there left to debate here? See you in the morning.
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    (Original post by Iago)
    1) He didn't say that one was bigger than the other, he said that one was worse than the other. And even if he had merely said that one was bigger than the other, this fact is so utterly irrelevant that it perfectly reasonable to assume that there is some kind of evaluation of the two atrocities being pushed through on the sly
    Ive acknowledged what he said, I dont see the point of evaluation or comparison, but I dont see the problem with it either, especially when respective attitudes are so vastly different.

    2) I sympathise with LCO1's frustration at Soviet sympathisers. But I would also like to point out that LCO1 adornes his posts with BNP symbolism and propaganda. The BNP, while not a Nazi party as such, are certainly a deeply racist party and are quasi-National Socialists to say the least. Crazy me though, thinking that he might be attempting to emphasise the suffering of whites over non-whites!
    And myself Jews over non-Jews?

    Oh please. Now you're just being argumentative for the sake of it. Those two statements are obviously jokes, and were not intended to be serious in any way. If you have been offended by them, then you have misunderstood them. I refuse to take seriously anyone who takes such harmless banter seriously.

    The kind of cheapening I am talking about is the kind that arises from serious arguments, not obvious non-serious jokes. I hardly left my opinion on the Nazi and Soviet atrocities ambigious in my posts.
    So jokes and banter surrounding Nazi atrocities shouldnt cause offence, but its fine for you to read between the lines to accuse members of nazi sympathy without any basis, and then tell me Im being deliberately argumentative because I happen to point out the glaring contradiction?
 
 
 
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