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    (Original post by kikzen)
    how about sportsmen; should they conceal their religions too (although, few sportsmen seem to be actively religious)? kids look up to them too! and in films and games, we all know how children follow what they see on tv(!)

    seriously though, do you think many children will want to convert religion because they saw their teacher wearing a headscarf?

    i reckon its quite unlikely.

    in anycase, children that are younger (primary school age) usually a) have a religion [from home] b) don't care about religion

    older children usually a)have a religion [from home] b)can choose themselves c)don't care about religion.
    exactly!
    and anyway, not many ppl look upto religion, these days.......
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    (Original post by edders)
    no, thats called teaching. religious influence is letting authority figures display religious symbols that kids can look up to as a 'good example'. obviously theres nothing wrong with having muslim teachers, but letting them wear head scarves does seem to violate the idea that kids should be free to form their own ideas about which religion (or lack of one) is right for them.
    kids just see teachers like another person-- if that specific teacher is the only adult they are seeing i could see your point but that (except in rare instances) is not the case... if they are seeing everyone without scarves then what is happening is almost the opposite of your goal- they will not recognize anyone wearing a head scarf as a 'good example' which will inhibit their idea about which religion (or lack of) is right for them.

    my brother's kindergarten teacher wore a head scarf and she was just "mrs. shaki" to him, not strange or even religious in any way
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    Religious influences? At many schools, hymns are sung in assemblies and church service is held, in which we are told we have to attend. So this isn't a religious influence? I don't see how someone practicing their religion influences children. What is the world coming to! It's plain stupid!
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    (Original post by Michael Beaver)
    No you just say, back in the dark ages when people needed direction, someone thought it would be a good idea if we invent a character that made us all (god) and if you're nice to each other you'll see him when you die. Kids will believe that. They believe in Father Christmas so telling them that twaddle will be... childs play.
    gotcha there... thats religious influence- atheism
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    Saying kids should be free from religious influences is like saying Science should be banned, because it encourages atheism.

    Thus, it is a absurd statement.
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    Saying kids should be free from religious influences is like saying Science should be banned, because it encourages atheism.

    Thus, it is a absurd statement.
    Different religions are all around them. They will meet people from different religions and different backgrounds anyways.
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    Vile
    I'm totally for the secularisation of government and state, but this is going too far. As long as they're not harming others, you can't stop people expressing their beliefs, otherwise where will it stop? It would pave the way for potentially greater violations of civil rights, and also mirrors the way in which the Nazis slowly introduced 'acceptable' (perhaps ignorable is a better word) civil restrictions on certain minorities, and built those up to the horrors of the Holocaust...
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    (Original post by rahaydenuk)
    I'm totally for the secularisation of government and state, but this is going too far. As long as they're not harming others, you can't stop people expressing their beliefs, otherwise where will it stop? It would pave the way for potentially greater violations of civil rights, and also mirrors the way in which the Nazis slowly introduced 'acceptable' (perhaps ignorable is a better word) civil restrictions on certain minorities, and built those up to the horrors of the Holocaust...
    Well put.
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    (Original post by rahaydenuk)
    I'm totally for the secularisation of government and state, but this is going too far. As long as they're not harming others, you can't stop people expressing their beliefs, otherwise where will it stop? It would pave the way for potentially greater violations of civil rights, and also mirrors the way in which the Nazis slowly introduced 'acceptable' (perhaps ignorable is a better word) civil restrictions on certain minorities, and built those up to the horrors of the Holocaust...
    *nods* it really can be introduced so subtley can't it?
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    i dont think anyone here has any idea about what is going on in France.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    i dont think anyone here has any idea about what is going on in France.
    But no doubt you're dying to tell us in your own unbiased way :rolleyes:
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    You've got to consider that on the continent most schools are state-schools. Since the state has a near-monopoly on schools, everything that is allowed or not allowed in schools has to be carefully considered, as most people have no alternative to state-schools.

    Two years ago I went to an English independent school. I didn't mind having to go to chapel every week despite being an agnostic, as going to chapel was "part of the deal" of going to that school. Had I refused to go to chapel, I could have just gone to another non-denominational school.

    Now, I go to a continental state school. If I was forced to go to chapel over here, I would mind, because I would have no choice. You can't just turn your back on a continental state school, as there are few alternatives.

    Therefore, it is understandable, that especially a secular country like France, does mind religious symbols in its schools. The French think that religion ought to remain strictly private and therefore has no place in public schools.

    Up till now most symbols have been tolerated nevertheless, as frankly speaking, no-one cares whether you have e.g. a Christian cross around your neck when you go to school or not.

    But the headscarf does raise some fundamental questions about these symbols. Indeed, the headscarf is in a way different from most Christian or Jewish symbols: It does imply practical problems. Can a girl be forced to remove her headscarve for PE, can she be forced to participate in a swimming class, if she refuses to disclose her body. In addition, one has to admit that headscarves are more eye-catching than most other symbols.

    You can't just allow girls not to participate to a swimming-class on grounds of their beliefs, as that would imply different treatment of people according to their religion. That is intolerable in public schools as it goes against the founding principles of the Republic (in France's case).

    On the other hand, forcing these girls to participate in swimming-class goes against their right to religious freedom. As the state has a virtual monopoly on schools, most girls in that position would have to compromise on their religious practices.

    The problem is that the principles of a secular state are in conflict with most major religions.

    In secular state, religion has no place in the public domain, yet most religions require their followers to display their faith or even to spread their beliefs. So there is and always has been a grave conflict between religious freedom and the secularity of the state.

    The fact that the number of Muslims in secular countries like France has strongly risen in recent years has not created this conflict, but it has amplified it, because certain branches of Islam require their followers to be particularly uncompromising on the presence of religion in the public domain.

    A conflict that has always existed and should have been addressed ages ago is now threatening to seriously hinder integration and make our societies fall apart. It must be solved as quickly as possible.

    My view is that in a modern society, the constitution should have primacy over religion. Therefore, if society as in France's case decides to be secular, religion has to yield to secularism in every aspect of public life, including schools. All religious symbols should hence be excluded from state schools. Allowing certain symbols and excluding others would be discriminatory and allowing all symbols is not viable, as I have shown above.


    I wonder how these problems are addressed in UK state schools, where the state is not secular (the Queen being the head of the Anglican Church) and where it does not at all have a monopoly on schools. Any comment is welcome!
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    impressive for a 4th posting! i think i agree with you about why its fair in in france.
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    (Original post by rahaydenuk)
    I'm totally for the secularisation of government and state, but this is going too far. As long as they're not harming others, you can't stop people expressing their beliefs, otherwise where will it stop? It would pave the way for potentially greater violations of civil rights, and also mirrors the way in which the Nazis slowly introduced 'acceptable' (perhaps ignorable is a better word) civil restrictions on certain minorities, and built those up to the horrors of the Holocaust...
    So, you'd disagree, i presume, if a teacher went into school one day waering a Nazi armband. Surely this is the same as wearing a headscarf or any other highly visible religious symbol to school, in the sense that both openly convey that particular teacher's beliefs (not in the sense of what the nazis stood for - im not saying all ppl who wear headscarves are terrorists!).
    I think that the law is justifyable. I think kids should be tought what different religions teach, so that should they turn to religion, they can decide for themselves which one to turn to, instead of having one religion drilled into them from youth. I think the ban in Germany stops this, although it is a bit too narrow.
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    I wonder how much uproar there would be if christians or jews were restricted with their religious beliefs. I betthere would be a bigger uproar. So, is it just because people think that muslims are a threat to society or something, cos that's stupid. I really hope that if there are some people who are agreeing with this french thing, then they'd be perfectly happy if there were religious restrictions on other religions too, else that's pretty hypocritical.
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    (Original post by Xenon)
    I wonder how much uproar there would be if christians or jews were restricted with their religious beliefs. I betthere would be a bigger uproar. So, is it just because people think that muslims are a threat to society or something, cos that's stupid. I really hope that if there are some people who are agreeing with this french thing, then they'd be perfectly happy if there were religious restrictions on other religions too, else that's pretty hypocritical.
    In France they are in fact banning kippahs and crosses.
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    (Original post by Tek)
    In France they are in fact banning kippahs and crosses.
    And everyone agrees with that? Wearing a nazi armband and wearing a scarf are no where near alike. NAzis were all for killing people and harming people. Sorry, but it does sound like you are saying that just because some people who happen to be muslims are terrorists, people should feel threatened by anyone wearing a scarf. Nazis had evil ways to go about their beliefs. You can't compare Islam to Nazis.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    i dont think anyone here has any idea about what is going on in France.
    Me too. That's my point. You shouldn't simply say something is wrong when you dont know the full story.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    i dont think anyone here has any idea about what is going on in France.
    I do have a France related question actually.
    The ban relates to overt religious symbols, yes? So, for example, would I as a non-Muslim be able to wear a headscarf for fashion reasons in a French school? Could someone who doesn't believe in Jesus wear a crucifix as a piece of jewellery rather than for its Christian connections? Or would it mean that anything that might be interpreted as religious is forbidden? This might sound nit-picky but I'm genuinely curious and thought you might have some idea.
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    (Original post by lala)
    I do have a France related question actually.
    The ban relates to overt religious symbols, yes? So, for example, would I as a non-Muslim be able to wear a headscarf for fashion reasons in a French school? Could someone who doesn't believe in Jesus wear a crucifix as a piece of jewellery rather than for its Christian connections? Or would it mean that anything that might be interpreted as religious is forbidden? This might sound nit-picky but I'm genuinely curious and thought you might have some idea.
    Very good point, also considering how a lot of people choose to wear garments which fully cover their head in order to hide injury, or perhaps hair-loss due to treatment for illness etc. What if someone in this situation happened also to be a Muslim...?
 
 
 
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