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    So everyone agrees that the African Union should do something, should we perhaps do something then.

    Like Barclays, they could withdraw.
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    (Original post by zaf1986)
    Now that is a good idea. But considering we didn't do it to other notable dictators in the past (a certain moustached man comes to mind), I doubt we would do it Mugabe.
    As Bismarck said, the problem with Saddam was that there would always be someone who was willing to defy us and the USA to get their hands on some of Iraq's oil, so to a degree British sanctions on Saddam's Iraq wouldn't be very effective. But no-one cares enough about Mugabe or has any interest in seeing him survive to endanger relations with Britain and her allies and supporters.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    I thought you were referring to "The Mustached One". Guess not.

    Britain had very little leverage over Iraq, especially since many countries care more about fulfilling their energy needs than about human rights/democracy..
    Oh *******s. America wasn't too keen on freedom and democracy when they supported the removal of a commie government(which was democratically elected, and yes, bad for their economy, but then thats hardly the point) from Chile. They've asked us to convieniently forget that now claim that it's their worldwide mission. Excuse me for being sceptical about their caring, sharing altruism. Why don't they try being honest about their self-interest?
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Most of Africa doesn't have any resources anyone needs,
    It doesn't have any natural produce that the world needs? A huge, diverse continent split halfway by the equator?
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    (Original post by naivesincerity)
    It doesn't have any natural produce that the world needs? A huge, diverse continent split halfway by the equator?
    And yet it didn't have the means to get enough capital for its resources in order to industrialize. The only African countries with a semblance of power are Nigeria, Algeria, and Libya, and that's because they have oil.

    Oh *******s. America wasn't too keen on freedom and democracy when they supported the removal of a commie government(which was democratically elected, and yes, bad for their economy, but then thats hardly the point) from Chile. They've asked us to convieniently forget that now claim that it's their worldwide mission. Excuse me for being sceptical about their caring, sharing altruism. Why don't they try being honest about their self-interest?
    All other things being equal, America supports democracy over authoritarianism. In the case of Chile, all other things were not equal. During the Cold War, whether someone was communist overrode all other considerations. If someone has a lot of oil/natural gas, that reality is taken into account when making foreign policy decisions. If a country is as geopolitically useless as Zimbabwe, democracy is the driver of American foreign policy.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    If someone has a lot of oil/natural gas, that reality is taken into account when making foreign policy decisions..
    Which translates in English "we do what we like" , but as i said, i don't think its that that really irritates me, its that it's coupled with such dishonesty and hypocrasy, the pious "we are saving you" tone that is hard to stomach. In short, i don't blame people who think your country is taking the piss out of them
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    If a country is as geopolitically useless as Zimbabwe, democracy is the driver of American foreign policy.
    Slightly ironic that its termed "democracy" when people have no choice over the fact there's going to be a hugely bloodthirsty military invasion of their country to bring it about
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    (Original post by naivesincerity)
    Which translates in English "we do what we like" , but as i said, i don't think its that that really irritates me, its that it's coupled with such dishonesty and hypocrasy, the pious "we are saving you" tone that is hard to stomach. In short, i don't blame people who think your country is taking the piss out of them
    How is that different from the policies of various EU governments (the EU itself included) which claim to support democracy and human rights, yet are more than willing to lift weapon embargoes against certain non-democratic states and sell arms to most dictators in the world, all while preventing the UN from enacting sanctions or allowing military action against certain states that are carrying out ethnic cleansing/genocide against their own people?
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    (Original post by Bismarck)

    All other things being equal, America supports democracy over authoritarianism. In the case of Chile, all other things were not equal. During the Cold War, whether someone was communist overrode all other considerations.
    I guess you feel kind of smug about the fact that communist economies wern't successful enough to afford to come in and enforce their way of life and thinking on you...?
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    How is that different from the policies of various EU governments (the EU itself included) which claim to support democracy and human rights, yet are more than willing to lift weapon embargoes against certain non-democratic states and sell arms to most dictators in the world, all while preventing the UN from enacting sanctions or allowing military action against certain states that are carrying out ethnic cleansing/genocide against their own people?
    Well i'm not saying it doesn't go on at the higher echelons, but there's certainly not such widespread support in Europe imo...eg most European countries were anti-Iraq,including the leaders, and others wanted firm support from the UN

    Sanctions do nothing but hit the people who the dictators couldn't give a **** for- Why support them?
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    (Original post by naivesincerity)
    I guess you feel kind of smug about the fact that communist economies wern't successful enough to afford to come in and enforce their way of life and thinking on you...?
    Tell that to the people of Angola, Ethiopia, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Afghanistan, and South Vietnam, along with the countries ruled from Moscow, including Mongolia, Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Tell that to the people of Angola, Ethiopia, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Afghanistan, and South Vietnam, along with the countries ruled from Moscow, including Mongolia, Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary.
    Tell them what? That i don't approve of military invasions to enforce democracy, or of taking away people's democratic rights because you don't like how they are being governed?
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    (Original post by naivesincerity)
    Well i'm not saying it doesn't go on at the higher echelons, but there's certainly not such widespread support in Europe imo...eg most European countries were anti-Iraq,including the leaders, and others wanted firm support from the UN

    Sanctions do nothing but hit the people who the dictators couldn't give a **** for- Why support them?
    Wrong. Most EU countries supported the Iraq war, including Britain, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, and Spain. That's 13 out of 25.

    (Original post by naivesincerity)
    Tell them what? That i don't approve of military invasions to enforce democracy, or of taking away people's democratic rights because you don't like how they are being governed?
    Tell them that communist governments were just as willing to commit aggression as capitalist ones.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Tell them that communist governments were just as willing to commit aggression as capitalist ones.
    Thats got nothing to do with the point...you're not a politician are you? You don't have to be evasive....
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Wrong. Most EU countries supported the Iraq war, including Britain, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, and Spain. That's 13 out of 25.
    I was referring to public displeasure mostly, although i mentioned leaders. How about those who thought there was not adequate UN backing?
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    (Original post by naivesincerity)
    Thats got nothing to do with the point...you're not a politician are you? You don't have to be evasive....
    With what point? You were implying that capitalist governments were the only ones carrying out acts of aggression against their adversaries. I have shown that to be false.

    I was referring to public displeasure mostly, although i mentioned leaders. How about those who thought there was not adequate UN backing?
    Who cares? More countries supported this war than the first Gulf War. Does France, Germany, and Russia have to support a war before it becomes legitimate?
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    Zimbabwe would possibly benefit more that iraq has but it has no features that the US want hence an evil dictator is able to get away with anything! North Korea is similar but for the fact that the US are worried of being nuked. Politics is a fickle thing and no country invades another without there being desired assets. the capture of saddam was a bonus not an essential
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    With what point? You were implying that capitalist governments were the only ones carrying out acts of aggression against their adversaries. I have shown that to be false.



    Who cares? More countries supported this war than the first Gulf War. Does France, Germany, and Russia have to support a war before it becomes legitimate?
    You've changed the subject again..i was talking about public attitudes...+don't assume because i'm British i'm going to start siding passionately against the evil Frogs and Krauts...
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    (Original post by naivesincerity)
    You've changed the subject again..i was talking about public attitudes...+don't assume because i'm British i'm going to start siding passionately against the evil Frogs and Krauts...
    The public doesn't determine foreign policy (though it has some effect on it), which makes your point moot.
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    The only way to get a good new establishment, is for the previous government to fall, and get a new government to rise.. ergo, revolution
 
 
 
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