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Abortion! watch

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    (Original post by yawn1)
    Same thing will happen with euthanasia once it's lawful - in time the aged, mentally incompetent and physically disabled will be euthanised because it will be 'unjust' to burden the rest of society with the cost and time involved in keeping them alive! All in the name of "we don't want them to suffer" or "they have no quality of life".
    Northern Territory - Australia.
    Euthanasia is legal. With one curious distinction. The patient must be the one making the choice. Also the only chance of overturning this rule is the unanimous vote from parliament. It is concrete. The person has to want to die, and ask for it personally.
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    (Original post by Sire)
    I'd still not like to see a person suffer, just because they were born. How bloody horrible is that?.
    Not as horrible as termination, no matter what you say.
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    (Original post by Sire)
    Northern Territory - Australia.
    Euthanasia is legal. With one curious distinction. The patient must be the one making the choice. Also the only chance of overturning this rule is the unanimous vote from parliament. It is concrete. The person has to want to die, and ask for it personally.
    Many people thought the abortion laws were going to be concrete. We all know how that turned out.
    Naivety is the scourge of modern politics.
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    Many people dont base their arguments on religion, rather moral instinct.
    I would argue that when it comes to abortions there isn't a moral instinct- religion dictates it because they believe the baby gets its soul after however many days it is- can they prove it? People have different ideas of morality.. it shouldn't be forced on them..

    Besides if people really did have a "moral instinct" then abortions should not be against the law- and people would not do it because of their values. Potential mother's should have rights aswell as unborn babies.
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    It clearly depends what you base your morals/ethics on. If you think the termination of a human life is acceptable, then I guess it can be justified.
    There in is the key. When does a foetus become a human? Some say it always was (as would you I'm guessing) others would say once it has entered the world. It really is a dodgey topic at times.
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    The same thing could be applied to drug-taking, thus it is not a feasible argument (not for most, anyway).
    I personally wouldn't compare getting an abortion to taking drugs. I doubt a pregnant woman feels or acts in the same way as a drug addict (unless of course she is one).
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    (Original post by Sire)
    There in is the key. When does a foetus become a human? Some say it always was (as would you I'm guessing) others would say once it has entered the world. It really is a dodgey topic at times.
    The foetus is the potential of human life (undeniable), from which we all grow.
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    Many people thought the abortion laws were going to be concrete. We all know how that turned out.
    Naivety is the scourge of modern politics.
    This was set in place by the general public actually. The politicians agreed simply because they didn't want to lose their votes and their jobs. Also there was a large public outcry at the time when a woman was dying a slow painful death and nothing was allowed to be done, despite a few suicide attempts. Nothing naive about that case mate.
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    (Original post by Lucy)
    I personally wouldn't compare getting an abortion to taking drugs. I doubt a pregnant woman feels or acts in the same way as a drug addict (unless of course she is one).
    Don't analyse it too closely. The want to not have a child and to take drugs can be equally as strong.
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    The foetus is the potential of human life (undeniable), from which we all grow.
    *nods* Basically how I see it, thus it is a touchy subject
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    (Original post by Sire)
    This was set in place by the general public actually. The politicians agreed simply because they didn't want to lose their votes and their jobs. Also there was a large public outcry at the time when a woman was dying a slow painful death and nothing was allowed to be done, despite a few suicide attempts. Nothing naive about that case mate.
    You're missing my point. Now that Euthanasia has been legalised, the laws will only become more relaxed.
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    Righto, common situation for you guys.
    Young woman is pregnant. Having the baby will cause her serious health issues. Having the abortion, and perhaps trying for a child again at a later date is an option. Which would you advise. Knowing of course that if you say no to abortion, you've made life extremely difficult for two people. When the alternative was a good quality of life for two people.
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    You're missing my point. Now that Euthanasia has been legalised, the laws will only become more relaxed.
    Why to you think that?.. I can't think of any controversial issues that have become law and then forgotten about. There will always be a strong lobby against Euthanisa to keep it in check.
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    (Original post by Elle)
    I would argue that when it comes to abortions there isn't a moral instinct- religion dictates it because they believe the baby gets its soul after however many days it is- can they prove it? People have different ideas of morality.. it shouldn't be forced on them..

    Besides if people really did have a "moral instinct" then abortions should not be against the law- and people would not do it because of their values. Potential mother's should have rights aswell as unborn babies.
    Christians believe ensoulment takes place at conception, i.e. the moment of human life beginning. Can you prove it doesn't occur then?
    Regarding 'mothers rights' - they are paramount in the Abortion Act - babies rights do not exist.
    A true story - a baby was aborted at 21 weeks and was born alive - the child was left to die in a dish, which it did do after 3 hours. If that same child had not been aborted every effort would have been made to help it survive - incubator, intensive medical treatment etc.
    How sad - one tiny person not entitled to a life, the other ones live very precious.
    How immoral!!
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    You're missing my point. Now that Euthanasia has been legalised, the laws will only become more relaxed.
    You're missing mine. The laws may only become relaxed via a unanimous vote. One thing that will never happen. Not in Australia anyway. We can barely agree on the colour of an orange when it comes to serious things in our parliamentary positions.
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    Don't analyse it too closely. The want to not have a child and to take drugs can be equally as strong.
    I think in most cases pregnant women do think about their actions a lot more than drug addicts. I don't think anyone can describe the guilt or feelings a pregnant woman considering abortion goes through. I think comparing drug addicts to pregnant women is a little too thoughtless for my liking.
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    Christians believe ensoulment takes place at conception, i.e. the moment of human life beginning. Can you prove it doesn't occur then?
    Regarding 'mothers rights' - they are paramount in the Abortion Act - babies rights do not exist.
    A true story - a baby was aborted at 21 weeks and was born alive - the child was left to die in a dish, which it did do after 3 hours. If that same child had not been aborted every effort would have been made to help it survive - incubator, intensive medical treatment etc.
    How sad - one tiny person not entitled to a life, the other ones live very precious.
    How immoral!!
    Agreed, that is sad. Just how far into the pregnancy would you say abortion is allowed? I wouldn't have thought any time after 15-16 weeks.
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    Christians believe ensoulment takes place at conception, i.e. the moment of human life beginning. Can you prove it doesn't occur then?
    Regarding 'mothers rights' - they are paramount in the Abortion Act - babies rights do not exist.
    A true story - a baby was aborted at 21 weeks and was born alive - the child was left to die in a dish, which it did do after 3 hours. If that same child had not been aborted every effort would have been made to help it survive - incubator, intensive medical treatment etc.
    How sad - one tiny person not entitled to a life, the other ones live very precious.
    How immoral!!
    That is terrible.. but on the other hand you can give a sad story on the account of a mother who was ill and who was carrying an terminally ill child but who was refused an abortion..
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    (Original post by yawn1)
    Christians believe ensoulment takes place at conception, i.e. the moment of human life beginning. Can you prove it doesn't occur then?
    Regarding 'mothers rights' - they are paramount in the Abortion Act - babies rights do not exist.
    A true story - a baby was aborted at 21 weeks and was born alive - the child was left to die in a dish, which it did do after 3 hours. If that same child had not been aborted every effort would have been made to help it survive - incubator, intensive medical treatment etc.
    How sad - one tiny person not entitled to a life, the other ones live very precious.
    How immoral!!
    Christians also believe those who do not believe what they believe will suffer in a burning pit forever, and ever, and ever. Amen.

    Anyway, life is not entitled to religion. If this were so, capital punishment would be outlawed. The fact of the matter is psychology and much research determines fear is caused by the EGO, which has been studied to develop a while after birth, in which case it takes even more and more time to become even stronger, and become aware of "itself". After all, we know people by their EGOs, this is their personality. People are their personality, and when it comes to life and death, when you're this young, you don't have a sense of self yet, no harm is done. The baby simply dies, because its memory does not yet allow it to experience pain. The pain occurs, but it passes. The baby is not self-aware. I personally believe if I was not self-aware, my body would be rightfully be up for auction.

    Nonetheless, the baby is still a life, but I feel the baby has nothing to gain, nor lose.
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    (Original post by Sire)
    Agreed, that is sad. Just how far into the pregnancy would you say abortion is allowed? I wouldn't have thought any time after 15-16 weeks.
    Most abortions are before 24 weeks. Late abortions are still legal but only in 'special' cases (i.e. mother's own life is threatened, severe disabilities etc.)

    The 24 week limit is there because foetuses become potentially viable at this point. Some babies (like yawn1 described) have been born even earlier and survived.
 
 
 
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