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    (Original post by JonD)
    Which conservatives, where?
    Its a core conservative tenant to preserve national sovereignity, no?
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    (Original post by zaf1986)
    Its a core conservative tenant to preserve national sovereignity, no?
    How does supporting decentralisation from Europe, and independence contravene this exactly?
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    How does supporting decentralisation from Europe, and independence contravene this exactly?
    Involvement in Europe is a compromise of it.
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    (Original post by zaf1986)
    Involvement in Europe is a compromise of it.
    What? What is your point?
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    (Original post by zaf1986)
    Involvement in Europe is a compromise of it.
    The world isn't black and white. The alternative for involvement in Europe is the creation of a potentially hostile European power and economic downturn due to a lack of access to continental European markets.
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    What? What is your point?
    Involvement in Europe is a compromise in national sovereignity. Britain is in there for purely economic reasons, but I can't see why we can't trade with the rest of Europe without being a member of the EU.

    The world isn't black and white. The alternative for involvement in Europe is the creation of a potentially hostile European power and economic downturn due to a lack of access to continental European markets.
    Membership of the EU and trading with Europe are two different things.
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    (Original post by zaf1986)
    Membership of the EU and trading with Europe are two different things.
    Getting out of the EU might very well mean getting out of the EU customs union. And no, trading from within the customs union is not the same as being forced to pay tariffs and go through additional bureaucratic hurdles.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Getting out of the EU might very well mean getting out of the EU customs union. And no, trading from within the customs union is not the same as being forced to pay tariffs and go through additional bureaucratic hurdles.
    You reaffirm my point. Britain is in Europe merely for the economic factor.
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    (Original post by zaf1986)
    You reaffirm my point. Britain is in Europe merely for the economic factor.
    Without economic prosperity there can be no national sovereignty, as most third world countries will tell you.
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    (Original post by zaf1986)
    You reaffirm my point. Britain is in Europe merely for the economic factor.
    You claimed that our choice requires the surrender of sovereignty, which certainly is not the case. Since the option that most of the Tories have selected includes "Decentralized" and "Independent", it innately means we retain our sovereignty; we would continue to wield our own national military, chose our own national government and decide our own fate; we are not "selling out" our nation any more than we are pissing on Nelson by supporting NATO.
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    Are you really unable to form an opinion?

    The profits advertisers must make from people like you... :rolleyes:
    Why dont you people even try to understand logical reasoning....thebucketwoman was right in saying how could you answer such an biased question and for you to say that he/she cant formulate an opinion is ridiculous..
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    Show us this logical reasoning of yourse then. Explain how the question is biased.

    You either dream of (1) The same neofunctionalist dream of a federal, centralised United States of Europe or (2) No thanks. Couldn't be simpler.
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    (Original post by JonD)
    You claimed that our choice requires the surrender of sovereignty, which certainly is not the case. Since the option that most of the Tories have selected includes "Decentralized" and "Independent", it innately means we retain our sovereignty; we would continue to wield our own national military, chose our own national government and decide our own fate; we are not "selling out" our nation any more than we are pissing on Nelson by supporting NATO.
    So how come the EU still has a role in our lawmaking? And EU law takes precendence over parliamentary law?
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    (Original post by zaf1986)
    So how come the EU still has a role in our lawmaking? And EU law takes precendence over parliamentary law?
    As members of the UN, we must accept their law that genocide is an illegal thing. Does that make us a less soveriegn nation, would we have to overthrow the UN to commit genocide? - Nope. We could decide to remove the precdence of EU law without a revolution or crisis, without asking the others for permission; we interact with the EU out of choice - much the same way we interact with other Inter-Governmental Organisations, and even International Non-Governmental Organisations (for instance, if the W3 Consortium sets a data standard that information systems must comply to).
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    (Original post by zaf1986)
    So how come the EU still has a role in our lawmaking? And EU law takes precendence over parliamentary law?
    Ultimately we have parliamentary soverignity. No parliament can bind its successors including the one which past the 1972 European Communities Act.
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    (Original post by zaf1986)
    So how come the EU still has a role in our lawmaking? And EU law takes precendence over parliamentary law?
    It takes IMPLIED precedence. - Factortame.

    In actuality - it is merely a treaty - and one which any government can undo if it sees fit. It would be messy, and ill advised IMO - but Parliament can do as it pleases legislatively. They could pass a law adopting "I Got High" by Afroman as the national anthem, and renaming London "Englishpeoplearefarcoolerthanth efrencheverwillbe-ville".

    The present rulings of the ECJ and the direct effect of EU law is only due to the fact that the courts take it that to be Parliament's intention by the passing of the EC ACT 1972. If they passed a law explicitly telling the courts to do otherwise - the courts would have no choice but to apply it.
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    Do you support the tarrifs which supposedly protect workers jobs.
    No. It harms Africa and I think we can help workers and working class society in other ways.

    Amazed to see 12 Conservatives have voted and yet no Lib Dems or Labour supporters. or do we have another case of very confused lefties?
    True lefties vote with the tories on this one Vienna! :smile:

    An economic strategy that offers social provisions and more workers rights? Or growth?
    Both. You can't really have on without the other.
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    I never thought I would say this...but france actually have been victorious for once in their history - and I congratulate them for that victory over the EU constitution....
    It is a little known clause in the constitution that its adoption by a country would result in the disbanding of that countries diplomatic envoys and embassies in all countries around the world, replaced by a single european agency.
    This would have a massive effect on tourists, but most specifically trade, as many people do not know how much trade is channeled to european countries through their embassies.
    When a country no longer has the power to represent itself, it is a terrible thing - Britain and America were condemned and baited over the prospective government it planned for iraq, claiming that it was being "swallowed" by two great imperious powers, yet at the prospect of the same happening to britain - they dont bat an eye lid, they even APPROVE of it - is this not a disgrace that a proud country of rich heritage could lose all that we have?
    The royal family costs 62p per person, per year, and brings in an estimated £3bn in tourism a year - is it just me, or is that a f*cking amazing deal! (dont worry - not planning to drag this thread onto royalism - just saying how being traditional can be beneficial without being outdated).
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    Yes the options of the poll are biased and stupid, but i voted for the 1st one as it implied that we should become more integrated into Europe e.g. joining the SM and EMU, which in the long term would be to Britain’s benefit. When you talk about leaving the Customs Unions and Europe altogether, dont people realise the benefits Europe gives in terms of jobs creation and stability and should we go back to a Free Trade Area market distortions in trade will exist where countries can then create Non-Tariff barriers etc.

    Also when people go on about loss of sovereignty and identity its just opportunism and jumping on the bandwagon (mainly Tories) as they know people are currently against EU due to biased derogatory reporting in the media. The loss of economic power in terms of laws which affect trade and business, and interest rate (inflation) will actually help investments in the future.
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    The royal family costs 62p per person, per year, and brings in an estimated £3bn in tourism a year - is it just me, or is that a f*cking amazing deal! (dont worry - not planning to drag this thread onto royalism - just saying how being traditional can be beneficial without being outdated).
    Did people stop visiting French palaces because they have no Royal family?
 
 
 
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