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    (Original post by Blur303)
    Yes it does it makes me feel so good to know that Britain is an international power, in fact I'd go as far to say that it turns me on. When you've got a real argument come back and try again my friend.
    You don't seem to realise that i am questioning that simple minded nationalism. What is the point of being a 'big player' if we are poor? In fact we wouldn't be a 'big player', Europe would.
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    Yes it does it makes me feel so good to know that Britain is an international power, in fact I'd go as far to say that it turns me on. When you've got a real argument come back and try again my friend.
    Well, you're a very silly boy. Now go away. Most people don't care about their countries international power, they care about prosperity and the rule of law.
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    You don't seem to realise that i am questioning that simple minded nationalism. What is the point of being a 'big player' if we are poor? In fact we wouldn't be a 'big player', Europe would.
    What makes you think that we would be poor as part of a more centralised Europe? I do agree as I said earlier that Europe needs to change, of course it does. And so do some of the great regulation of the economy. But remember that the EU constitution did enshrine the free market economy approach. Europe will become more competitive and moreover we can only make it so if we are a strong central member.
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    (Original post by TheVlad)
    Well, you're a very silly boy. Now go away. Most people don't care about their countries international power, they care about prosperity and the rule of law.
    So the tory policy of ignoring anyone who doesn't agree with you has affected you to.
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    What makes you think that we would be poor as part of a more centralised Europe? I do agree as I said earlier that Europe needs to change, of course it does. And so do some of the great regulation of the economy. But remember that the EU constitution did enshrine the free market economy approach. Europe will become more competitive and moreover we can only make it so if we are a strong central member.
    The government puts the net 'contribution' cost of our EU membership at £8.5 billion and the current estimates put it at £11 billion. The pro-EU Institute of Directors calculated it as more than double - and rising. Indirect costs - complying with regulations, loss of earnings from farming, fishing, etc., raise the overall cost still further. Withdrawal from the EU would yield Britain a £25 billion Independence Dividend. CAP takes up 50% of the budget yet brings in 5% of income.The City of London will be weakened by 'financial services' legislation carried by the votes of EU countries with no comparable financial sectors of their own. Similarly, our position - unique within the EU - as a world leader in the art & antiques trades, is threatened by 'harmonised' VAT. This is only a fragment of infor provided by UKIP.
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    The government puts the net 'contribution' cost of our EU membership at £8.5 billion and the current estimates put it at £11 billion. The pro-EU Institute of Directors calculated it as more than double - and rising. Indirect costs - complying with regulations, loss of earnings from farming, fishing, etc., raise the overall cost still further. Withdrawal from the EU would yield Britain a £25 billion Independence Dividend. CAP takes up 50% of the budget yet brings in 5% of income.The City of London will be weakened by 'financial services' legislation carried by the votes of EU countries with no comparable financial sectors of their own. Similarly, our position - unique within the EU - as a world leader in the art & antiques trades, is threatened by 'harmonised' VAT. This is only a fragment of infor provided by UKIP.
    And yet report after report has conclusively agreed that withdrawal would mean an econonmic catastrophe. Britain has received huge investment as a result of being in the EU, simple as.
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    So the tory policy of ignoring anyone who doesn't agree with you has affected you to.
    Can I reitarate: Most people don't care about their country's' international power, they care about prosperity and the rule of law.
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    (Original post by TheVlad)
    Can I reitarate: Most people don't care about their country's' international power, they care about prosperity and the rule of law.
    Oh I forgot that the tories are very representative of peoples' views. Don't you think that it is important that Britain's voice actually means something on the international stage?
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    And yet report after report has conclusively agreed that withdrawal would mean an econonmic catastrophe. Britain has received huge investment as a result of being in the EU, simple as.
    I think the reports mean complete withdrawal from trading with the EU. Otherwise please show me which reports.
    You don't need to have teh same laws as other European countries, sacrifice your sovereignty and give them lots of money to subsidise their farmers in order to trade with them.
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    Oh I forgot that the tories are very representative of peoples' views.
    -you are right, they are.
    -how is this in any way relevant to what most people think of the EU?
    Don't you think that it is important that Britain's voice actually means something on the international stage?
    It's nice, as a bonus. But I would prefer to have economic stability and the ability to make my own laws.
    Oh and once again, as objectivism pointed out, it would not be Britain's voice, it would be Europe's (France).
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    (Original post by TheVlad)
    -you are right, they are.

    Oh and once again, as objectivism pointed out, it would not be Britain's voice, it would be Europe's (France).
    Forgive me for that mistake, for a minute I forgot that Labour has now won 3 successive general elections. On the other point I'm afraid to say that that is a typical tory propaganda. France is as one of the largest nations a very important player in Europe, but so are we. I acknowledge that at one time the Franco-German alliance reigned supreme in the EU but with an enlarged EU this is no longer the case. Now more than ever Britain is one of the leading nations in the EU, this is particularly the case with our strong economy. Why is there an inherent hostility towards Europe and particularly France from most tories? What exactly is that you are so afraid of from Europe?
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    And yet report after report has conclusively agreed that withdrawal would mean an econonmic catastrophe. Britain has received huge investment as a result of being in the EU, simple as.

    No it would not, we give more than we receive. Civitas had announced that its research had shown that withdrawal from the European Union would generate a boost to the British economy of between £19.33bn and £30bn p.a. Also 80% of our economic activity, as measured by GDP, is between different parts of the UK. Put another way, a more meaningful statistic would be to say that 80% of our trade is internal, 11% is with non-EU nations, and only 9% is with the EU. The United Kingdom is the fourth largest economy in the world (soon to become the third if the German economy, shackled to the euro, continues to collapse). The report warned that the UK is paying prices for its manufactured imports "some 20% - 80% above world levels" because of anti-dumping penalties on outsiders who try to sell their goods in the EU for less than the official market price. Patrick Minford, Professor of Economics at Cardiff University has pointed out, as an example, that the cost of computers is 50% higher inside the EU than out. EU regulations in general cost us not less than £6.33bn p.a. and the CAP £9bn p.a. Add to that the £4.3bn p.a. net budget contribution, and the minimum cost of the EU to Britain works out as £19.63bn p.a.
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    Forgive me for that mistake, for a minute I forgot that Labour has now won 3 successive general elections.
    oooh get you. Doesn't stop the Conservative party being representative of people's views.

    On the other point I'm afraid to say that that is a typical tory propaganda. France is as one of the largest nations a very important player in Europe, but so are we.
    Which coutry has had the most influence on the formation of the EU bureacracy? Why must the parliament move to strasbourg every month?
    I acknowledge that at one time the Franco-German alliance reigned supreme in the EU but with an enlarged EU this is no longer the case. Now more than ever Britain is one of the leading nations in the EU, this is particularly the case with our strong economy. Why is there an inherent hostility towards Europe and particularly France from most tories? What exactly is that you are so afraid of from Europe?
    Socialism
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    The move to Strasbourg every month is an absolute farce. All MEPs are against it bar several loud and loony frenchmen (and women). Plus Luxembourg who fear that the abolishment of the Strasbourg plenaries would result in moving the "official" seat of the Secretariat away from Luxembourg.
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    Just a note - there's no way Britain can go it alone in the world today. I'll go into lengthy discussion about this if anyone vehemently disagrees but I don't have time at the minute.
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    I voted "Centralised, Federalised", but that's not what I want. The poll's far too narrow.
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    Ultimately, futher integration is and has to be inevitable.
    The French and Dutch people dont agree, neither do the Germans or the British. Unless you are advocating an undemocratic Europe?

    And I believe that this will not necessarily be a uniquely European phenomena, gradually and with the emergence of huge giants like China and India smaller countries from the "old world" are going to drift into insignificance.
    History shows that huge giants like China will split up, certainly if liberal reform takes place. Its unlikely China will exist as it does today in 20 years.

    So hypothetically, what are we to do then? Risk paling into international insignificance or be part of a body that will mean something on the world stage?
    Youve assumed that a) we will pale into insignificance having not demonstrated how b) that a federal Europe would make us, as a nation, any more significant c) there arent any further options.

    The European Union will probably be this vehicle. It might be the only way that in the not too distant future, European nations will be able to truly compete. But in order to do this, the EU will need drastic reform, not least with the gradual dismantling of the CAP and a move away from the agrarian Europe created since the Treaty of Rome. There will also have to be large reform of the institutions, reforming the executive and giving a reformed European Parliament actual legislative powers. Hopefully this would give the electorate more confidence in Europe. There will always be problems, but surely the prospect of greater unity is simply inevitable, and maybe just maybe it may not be such a bad thing.
    So you wish to see an end to Britain as a means to compete? I think sacrificing our nation and identity is about as far away from competition as I can imagine.
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    Even if the world turns out like you predict, why must the UK sacrfice our soverignity?
    How can we be part of a body with a "reformed executive and giving a reformed European Parliament actual legislative powers", and not sacrifice any sovereignity?
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    We can maintain our position as real global player as a leading member of a strong and vibrant European Union.
    We are a member of the European Union. It is neither strong or vibrant.
    How do you propose it becomes strong and vibrant with US(the UK) as a MEMBER?
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    Yes it does it makes me feel so good to know that Britain is an international power, in fact I'd go as far to say that it turns me on. When you've got a real argument come back and try again my friend.
    And yet you want to hand over more sovereignity, thus giving away this power? Completely contradictory.
 
 
 
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