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    (Original post by Blur303)
    What makes you think that we would be poor as part of a more centralised Europe? I do agree as I said earlier that Europe needs to change, of course it does. And so do some of the great regulation of the economy. But remember that the EU constitution did enshrine the free market economy approach.
    No it doesnt.

    Europe will become more competitive and moreover we can only make it so if we are a strong central member.
    You keep contradicting yourself. You talk up international power and then talk about more centralisation and more sacrificing of sovereignity.
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    And yet report after report has conclusively agreed that withdrawal would mean an econonmic catastrophe. Britain has received huge investment as a result of being in the EU, simple as.
    Why not show us one of these reports. Again, you paint a completely illogical black and white scenario. Trade does not require us to involve ourselves in a single economy, trade does not require us to sign up to the EU constitution, trade and investment do not require us to be any more centralised. We are already far past being a simple trade zone, so your argument will have to show how binding our interest rates, work ethic and industrial regulation to 24 other nations is actually of benefit to the British economy.
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    IMO, the referenda on the constitution were pointless - there were measure within the constitution that no one would disagree with - for example making the Council of Ministers meet in public. The real problem was that the constitution was far too large to give a definate 'yes' or 'no' too.
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    (Original post by LH)
    IMO, the referenda on the constitution were pointless - there were measure within the constitution that no one would disagree with - for example making the Council of Ministers meet in public. The real problem was that the constitution was far too large to give a definate 'yes' or 'no' too.
    It was far too large to be a constitution, full stop.
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    Bluntly that isn't true, we do of course have many important links with the Americans and the Commonwealth they are not nearly as inherently strong as those we have with Europe. We are fundamentally a European nation, we are not American. Yes we do have our differences with other European nations, but so what? The best thing about Europe is its diversity. What possible cultural links do we have with Zimbabwe for example, which until recently was a member of the commonwealth? Moreover I dount that the prospect of intergration with the UK would go down well with our former colonies. America is fundamentally more conservative and less liberal than ourselves or our European counterparts, I for one do not like the idea of being subsumed into being the 51st state of America and would far prefer to be a leading member of the European Union. On the question of inevitabilty I accept your point that one can never be entirely certain as much depends on events that are impossible to forsee, nonetheless integration remains in my view very likely.
    Perhaps I should reiterate my point. When I said Commonwealth, I meant primarily what was once called the White Commonwealth - Australia, Canada, New Zealand. And I am not suggesting that such a Union would mean that we would become a 51st state of the US, afterall, isn't that similar to saying that if Britain joined a European super-state, then it would become a province of France, a point that you were vermently trying to deny? I would not wish for such a Union myself, but the British people themselves I think would prefer a Union with the so-called White Commonwealth and the USA, whom we agree with on foreign polices, whose economies are somewhat similar, whom we share language, alliances, indeed Empire, culture, similar forms of government, with the White Commonwealth a head of state, rather than the EU. I do wish for closer ties with the Commonwealth and less of a focus on Europe, making the Commonwealth a force for good in the world.
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    Bluntly that isn't true, we do of course have many important links with the Americans and the Commonwealth they are not nearly as inherently strong as those we have with Europe. We are fundamentally a European nation, we are not American.
    In what way is British society fundamentally European? Granted, America has never had an aristocracy, but French society is built on the proud moment they decapitated theirs.

    Yes we do have our differences with other European nations, but so what? The best thing about Europe is its diversity.
    Hmm, so we are fundamentally closer to a diverse set of 25 nations than a nation who declared independence from us, inherited our system of government and, for a large part, whos heritage descends from our very shores?

    What possible cultural links do we have with Zimbabwe for example, which until recently was a member of the commonwealth?
    What cultural links do we have with Slovakia? Im sure there are many countries, such as Zimbabwe, that dont ressemble the British colonies they did years ago. But Im not arguing to create a federal superstate with Zimbabwe, St.Kitts and Cook Island.

    Moreover I dount that the prospect of intergration with the UK would go down well with our former colonies. America is fundamentally more conservative and less liberal than ourselves or our European counterparts, I for one do not like the idea of being subsumed into being the 51st state of America and would far prefer to be a leading member of the European Union.
    Seeing as you wish to submit to a European superstate, one can only imagine the reason you dont wish to become part of the American federal state is because our language, culture and values are fundamentally closer to the French, Finns, Portuguese and Poles. Oh, wait.....

    On the question of inevitabilty I accept your point that one can never be entirely certain as much depends on events that are impossible to forsee, nonetheless integration remains in my view very likely.
    Not if the people of Europe have anything to do about it. Are you pessimistic about democracy in Europe or do you believe, like the departing EU President and Tony Blair, that referendums are optional and all rather irrelevant to the 'project'.
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    Woah sorry to rattle your cage Vienna. There are too many points to raise individually but can I ask you what makes us so profoundly un-European? What would you suggest exactly, that we withdraw from the EU entirely? By the way I agree with you that the parliamentary move to Strasbourg is ridiculous.
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    What would you suggest exactly, that we withdraw from the EU entirely?
    We are not profoundly un European. These are arguments are similar to the French government's claims that a No to the EU Constitution will mean a return to the holocaust. Completely hysterical. Neither do we need to withdraw or cease trading because we wish to reject any further integration and reject a centralised, federal Europe.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    We are not profoundly un European. These are arguments are similar to the French government's claims that a No to the EU Constitution will mean a return to the holocaust. Completely hysterical. Neither do we need to withdraw or cease trading because we wish to reject any further integration and reject a centralised, federal Europe.
    Forgive me but your general point seems to be that we have very little in common with continental Europe. I don't seem to remember stating that if we pull out of the EU fascism would return in droves across Europe.
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    Forgive me but your general point seems to be that we have very little in common with continental Europe.
    I asked you to demonstrate why we are fundamentally closer to Europe than the US. I draw comparisons that questioned that claim.

    I don't seem to remember stating that if we pull out of the EU fascism would return in droves across Europe.
    You didnt, you did however great mythical scenarios to portray European integration as the only feasible option.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    I asked you to demonstrate why we are fundamentally closer to Europe than the US. I draw comparisons that questioned that claim.



    You didnt, you did however great mythical scenarios to portray European integration as the only feasible option.
    Although we share a common language with the US and other special ties our general system of values is fundamentally quite different. Americans particularly in the central states are far more conservative than most europeans (and of course I include Britain in that). This is no way anti-americanism but a genuine obeservation. And these mythical scenarios that I have supposedly created are scenarios (like the emergence of China) that are likely to occur. We have to at least contemplate all eventualities and EU integration in my view is the answer to this one.
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    Although we share a common language with the US and other special ties our general system of values is fundamentally quite different. Americans particularly in the central states are far more conservative than most europeans (and of course I include Britain in that).
    Give me an example.

    And these mythical scenarios that I have supposedly created are scenarios (like the emergence of China) that are likely to occur. We have to at least contemplate all eventualities and EU integration in my view is the answer to this one.
    China has emerged, and only liberal reform will see China as any kind of sustained threat. With liberal reform will come repeated redefinition of its borders. Whether China is a threat or not is however, irrelevant. I want the UK to be able to protect our interests in the best possible manner. Irrespective of the size of others, handing over sovereignity is precisely the opposite of protecting our interests.

    Its a complete nonsense to think that if 25 nations get together they will have an economy 25 times stronger. Heres one scenario: In 20 years, most of Europe will be on the verge of bankruptcy as its ageing population, having hit 55(as opposed to 65 elsewhere in the working world), claim more and more pension. Here is a choice: end the 35 hour working week, cradle to grave welfare, regulation, centralisation, bureaucracy, tax and spend policy, supra national taxation and monetary union.

    What argument do you offer the British users of this forum, faced with European unemployment at almost 10%, GDP growth measured in decimals and dwindling military budgets? More of the same please!
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Give me an example.



    China has emerged, and only liberal reform will see China as any kind of sustained threat. With liberal reform will come repeated redefinition of its borders. Whether China is a threat or not is however, irrelevant. I want the UK to be able to protect our interests in the best possible manner. Irrespective of the size of others, handing over sovereignity is precisely the opposite of protecting our interests.

    Its a complete nonsense to think that if 25 nations get together they will have an economy 25 times stronger. Heres one scenario: In 20 years, most of Europe will be on the verge of bankruptcy as its ageing population, having hit 55(as opposed to 65 elsewhere in the working world), claim more and more pension. Here is a choice: end the 35 hour working week, cradle to grave welfare, regulation, centralisation, bureaucracy, tax and spend policy, supra national taxation and monetary union.

    What argument do you offer the British users of this forum, faced with European unemployment at almost 10%, GDP growth measured in decimals and dwindling military budgets? More of the same please!
    If you had bothered to pay close attention to what I have written you would have noticed that I have constantly emphasised that the EU needs to reform, urgently. Not least in the budget. But my argument is that a more united Europe will be stronger than if we are alone. No it is true that 25 nations united will not have an economy 25 times as strong; but it is certainly true that collaboratively the economy of the EU member states surpasses any country in the world. If hypothetically the EU were to be united Europe would therefore be the strongest econonomic power in the world. Moreover what in the name of God is wrong with cradle to grave welfare??? Surely it is the hallmark of a civilized society that we invest to help others, that a society comes together to collaboratively invest in a welfare state that benefits all?
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    If you had bothered to pay close attention to what I have written you would have noticed that I have constantly emphasised that the EU needs to reform, urgently. Not least in the budget. But my argument is that a more united Europe will be stronger than if we are alone. No it is true that 25 nations united will not have an economy 25 times as strong; but it is certainly true that collaboratively the economy of the EU member states surpasses any country in the world.
    Does it? The EU economy is more influential than that of the US? Which way is the EU economy going?

    If hypothetically the EU were to be united Europe would therefore be the strongest econonomic power in the world.
    We would have to be one nation. Are you willing to accept that?

    Moreover what in the name of God is wrong with cradle to grave welfare??? Surely it is the hallmark of a civilized society that we invest to help others, that a society comes together to collaboratively invest in a welfare state that benefits all?
    How are you going to pay for cradle to grave welfare for a majority of retirees, with a stagant economy? Any money left to spend on the military? Seeing as NATO would collapse, the EU would have to increase military spending by 3 times just to maintain the impotence it has today. And you talk about matching the US and China?!
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    Its simple...another world war would sort out the aging population...send the elderly dependants in to battle against each other - they could call it big grandmother - it would make us all rich for selling the idea to the world too, therefore killing two birds with one stone!

    ok, silly idea...but we are pretty screwed with an aging, dependant population.
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    I think europe shoud not try to make sth all together..they wont succeed anyways, cause there is definitly TOO many countries in it, and the differences between all those countries are too big..they cnt all get along thats a fact..
    Europe as it is now is kinda gd, cause all the countries keep there policy as it ws ..i dnt believe in big europe that cud compete with the usa..no way..
    I could go on writtin abt it for ages and bein mean but i wont..lolz
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    (Original post by hanae)
    I could go on writtin abt it for ages and bein mean but i wont..lolz
    Being 'mean' about things is the whole point of TSR!
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    (Original post by thebucketwoman)
    Being 'mean' about things is the whole point of TSR!
    lol..im gonna start to love this forum then

    I think there is no way that europe can be as one some day..its jst impossible nd it would be stupid, we all have different cultures and customs that we sould keep as they are now..too much mix could lead each country to lose its own identity which would be a bad thing coz it wdnt allow any surprise for the ppl who wd like to visit this country..we wd b goin toward a noramtive society..which is already partly done with all those big firms like coca-cola or mcdo n so on..we shud try to do stuff all together but not stuff that wd change too much our society..

    A great europe wd b difficult to do with the 10 new countries dat are obviously poorer than the leaders of europe and that cud jst slow them down in their dream of a strong n powerful europe..no offence coz im the first one to say they cud bring a lot of gd things in europe, like a cultural mix and it cd bring new blood to the"old europ" but it will obviously take time befor it..n before ppl frm this old europe consider them as a real part of the EU..most of ppl wd say they r jst the poorer ones who r there jst for themselves n cnt bring nothin to europe..its hard to change stuff..n all that is abt money..like the fact that spain nd other countries r gna get less subtivies becoz of em which is kinda false..but ppl r not ready to share everythin so they cn no way shere the same policy or whatever ..not for the moment at least..

    Omfg..there is TOO many things to say abt that..i may continue later !!
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    [QUOTE=Vienna]

    We would have to be one nation. Are you willing to accept that?



    QUOTE]

    Yes
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    (Original post by Blur303)
    (Original post by Vienna)

    We would have to be one nation. Are you willing to accept that?


    Yes
    "We can maintain our position as real global player as a leading member"

    Hmm!
 
 
 
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