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    I did both.

    It all depends what people you are with. there was only 4 of us doing DoE but the expeditions are seriously so much fun, esp gold!

    CCF is also really good, but that was mainly because my school used to be an OTC, ie they had the privilge to award Junior Under Officier, so when you get to go to some Base, eg Warcop, etc, you are the highest cadet there n you can technically give **** to some adults seargents.

    you can also use CCF as the service for your DoE, provided you are lance corporal or above.

    i hope this can help a bit. if you have got the time and bother, do both.
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    On saturday I have to walk for 4 days on my silver expedition it's very tiring, espes after exams, but once it's over, you only remember the good bits! Glad I took it up.
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    (Original post by StriatedCentipe)
    On saturday I have to walk for 4 days on my silver expedition
    you have to walk for 4 days on saturday! :rolleyes: cool.
    i got my gold dofe expedition on 20th ish of july, 1 day after i get back jetlagged from america. 2 days after that i got camping till end of august. happy days, if a tad tiring...
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    Why not do the DofE with the ATC or CCF???

    DofE is an expedition, CCF or ATC is a long term commitment that will set you up with skills and can be used as a stepping stone to jobs while at school or after school.
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    DofE is an expedition, CCF or ATC is a long term commitment
    DofE is a long term comitment as well. Apart of expedition you have to do service, skill and sport for as long as 12months.
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    what is CCF and ATC????? please, someone explain!!!
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    the ccf is the combined cadet force and the atc is the air training corps. Both of these will help you later on in life, however, recently the duke of edinburugh award (D of E) has become more widley recognised because its teachings are more extensive and it helps you in a variety of ways.
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    I did DofE to bronze, it was fun. Your netball can count towards you sport part of DofE, but you will also have to do a skill and community service; which can be difficult to find, and to find time for.

    CCF i did too, and i was CWO for my RAF section (little me shouting at 100 boys... ahh it vented my rage a treat) but CCFs vary a lot from School to school. At my one i managed to go on 5 camps in four years, all of which i enjoyed thouroughly and felt they were exceedingly character building; and for me, they enriched me more as a person than doing Bronze did.

    With DofE i think Univerisity's only really take notice of it when you do silver or gold; and the same with CCF if you become a sergent or have responsibility then unis will take notice.

    In the end, as long as you choose one to do and you give it your best shot; going to gold or becoming head of section, then the univeristies will see that your are a hardworking individual and able to work in a team.
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    (Original post by BlackHawk)

    D of E is an expedition, CCF or ATC is a long term commitment that will set you up with skills and can be used as a stepping stone to jobs while at school or after school.
    That is the voice of ignorance. To be honest (if you did the minimum amount of DoE work and the minimum commitment to CCF) then they take up about the same amount of time.

    I don't think "how much time" you give up counts for very much if anything at all. If I give up tonnes of time to revise for an exam but fail it anyway I'm ****ed up the backside, regardless of how much time i had given up. Ultimately it comes down to enjoyment. Personally I did not find some activities the CCF did very appealing - eg marching. On the other hand some people did like this, plus the fact that CCF was a one off weekly commitment where as you had to organise your own DoE things and do a varriety of them during the week. If you're motivated by how much time it you have to give up then.... I dunno, but that shouldn't be the motivation, enjoyment should!

    When i did DoE we did expidition training session at the same time (after school) as the cadets were doing CCF, and then I had to do my physical, service and skill in my own free time. So for me DoE was more of a time commitment than CCF was to the cadets. But again, my time is preacious and I'm not in competition with anyone who wants to show how much of their time they can give away.

    Of course there is the old argument that "By going to CCF camp I do a hell of a lot more stuff than you do for DoE". This is of course, and respect to those cadets who do it. That said, its optional. I could be a camp leader as part of DoE service, even though it would be alot more work than I had to do. So again, if you're after kudos for time-spent you don't get much here.

    As for CCF being a better thing to put on your CV, I believe this is a load of poopoo. The only circumstances that being in the CCF will look better than DoE is if you are applying for a job in the military. Other than that the only time DoE has an edge over CCF is down to the personal bias of the person in charge of job selection / interviews - ie did they do CCF or DoE when they were at school. If you speak to the personnel departments of most organisations then you should find they concur with this.
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    I have dun d of e for years and i have found it rele fun. Im werid that i lyk goin up hills and luv the views at the top. I have done my gold practise, went to wales in the one week in their history that they had beautiful weather for a whole week. IT WAS H-O-T-T! but wen uve dun it is so satisfying.

    All the stuff i have done for it has made me see things in a different light and i would recommend it to anyone. I originally started only for UCAS form but im glad i carried it on.
    Hopefully io should achieve Gold in March Nxt year, dn to a palace to whine and Dine.
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    Hehe....

    Reason to do DofE / CCF = Looks impressive on UCAS / CV!!! Screw the personal satisfaction and personal growth....I want something to put in my personal statement. Anyway.....

    You should ignore everyone and do which ever you think you'll enjoy the most!
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    The thing I don't like about CCF (and this is an issue that is specific to my school, not CCF in general) is that the CO was asked at an information thing "do you not think the CCF encourages people to kill other people" to which he replied "no, if I did I wouldn't do it".

    I personally don't believe his answer. (My argument isn't based exclusively on this point, but) if its not about killing people then why do they do it in the context of the army (ie army uniform, ranks, equipment, guns, camps) - the army is an organisation who are there to kill people / destroy things in order to achieve a goal.

    Yes/no?
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    I'm doing the bronze award now. It's really fun! The practise walk was funny I don't think i've ever laughed so much. I'm doing my final expedition in September. By the way does anybody know that if you can't do or complete the expedition due to health reasons do you still get the award or have to do another walk?
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    I think that if you didn't do the walk because, say, you broke your arm the week before, then you would have to do the walk at another time. If you started the walk, broke your arm midway through and therefore had to quit, there would be no problem in you passing the walk. Its up to the assesor. Though if you're doing a simple one night expidtion like I did for bronze then you'd probably have done over half the walk by the time of your accident!
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    (Original post by smeets)
    The thing I don't like about CCF (and this is an issue that is specific to my school, not CCF in general) is that the CO was asked at an information thing "do you not think the CCF encourages people to kill other people" to which he replied "no, if I did I wouldn't do it".

    I personally don't believe his answer. (My argument isn't based exclusively on this point, but) if its not about killing people then why do they do it in the context of the army (ie army uniform, ranks, equipment, guns, camps) - the army is an organisation who are there to kill people / destroy things in order to achieve a goal.

    Yes/no?
    No. The Army is primarily for defending Britain, and to look after British interests abroad. You must be singularly narrow-minded to think that "the army is an organisation who are there to kill people/destroy things in order to achieve a goal". It is true that servicemen and women have to be combat-ready at all time, but if you think that they're all bloody-thirsty and ready to blow things up (which you seem to indicate) then you're wrong. Badly wrong. The army does peacekeeping duties in places like Kosovo and Irak, and even trains up armies in Sierra Leone. They provide humanitarian aid to empoverished people, their pioneers build homes and shelter in war-ravaged countries (not necessarily through their destruction) . So the army isn't in the slightest always out to blow **** up/gun down people.

    The CCF isn't about killing either. It is different to the ATC in that it focuses more on the management/leadership skills of cadets. They do it in the context of the army because, surprise surprise, it is an official offshoot of the army, and it would be a little strange if it didn't bear even a vague resemblance to the Army. CCF encourages teamwork and integrity (standing around in the cold doing guard duty springs to mind), and is ultimately designed to (a) promote the Army and military life in general, (b) to strengthen physically and mentally, and (c) as an opportunity to gain life skills that are useful later, whether you join the military or not. It only in the slightest promotes killing people (learning how to handle a gun, shooting at targets), but I wouldn't even consider saying that killing people was fostered through the CCF.

    Oh, and in answer to the question, do both. They're both great things to do.
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    That army are of course there to safe guard our interests and defend us. But it’s important to draw a clear distinction between “defending ourselves and safe guarding our assets” and “the part they army play in defending ourselves and safe guarding our assets”. The army exist to forcibly defend us and to forcibly safe guard our interests. They do that by the use of lethal force, or the threat to use lethal force. As for peacekeeping duties (if you will permit me to forget about the whole issue to do with the UN and the powers they give their peacekeepers) the army are able to keep the peace because they pose, ultimately, a threat of death to people who disobey them. Obviously I appreciate that they also use other means of arrest while on peacekeeping duties. The largest Army in the world believe that an army is not best suited to policing duties, and that is why the US are only involved in Haiti and a small number of other countries as peace keepers. Their role in Iraq is obviously slightly different, I’m sure you will understand, as they are essentially preparing a country they invaded.



    As for humanitarian aid, you’re totally correct. I forgot about their aid role when making my earlier post. Even so, I do not believe that humanitarian causes is the army’s primary role, nor anything like a majority of their work.



    I don’t think that servicemen and woman are hungry for death and destruction. I do think that the majority of their training is focused on their ability to cause death and destruction, however. Words like “soldier”, “fight” and “defend” are associated with the army, indeed used by the army themselves, for a reason.



    You seemed to think that it was outrageous of me to suggest why the CCF was associated with the army. The point I was making is why can’t you practise leadership, discipline and commitment outside the context of the army. Take for instance a rifle. I and many others have used the argument that by teaching a cadet to maintain, load, aim and fire a rifle you are teaching them to kill people. The CCF at my school claim that this is not the case: they are but practising the skills of marksmanship – a sport in itself. I know this is true, in practise, that they are not suggesting you shoot at people. If this is so, then why do the CCF (and by that I mean those people who participate in CCF) need to do it in the context of the army. A gun in the army is and object which is present to kill people. The army do not carry guns so they can have impromptu shooting competitions. A gun in the context or a marksman is an item of recreation and of sport. Do you see my point, I’m not sure if I’ve explained it well enough?



    I could go on, but I think this will do, for now!
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    I see your point. I agree that guns are mainly made for killing people, but I said that soldiers are primarily there to defend against a threat, if necessarily, through killing. That doesn't make the Army hellbent upon destruction. And the CCF? I only ever fired a weapon once in the field at people. And I was shooting blanks. The majority of the time I was either running about, or giving commands, and having a really good time.

    How else would you structure the CCF then, if not in Army terms? Note that any rank has the prefix "CCF" before it i.e. CCF Warrant Officer 2nd Class. It is to differentiate from the real army ranks, yet emphasise the links with the Army.

    And words like "soldier", "fight" and "defend": where else would you find such words? "Soldier" is only in the Army/Marines, I grant you that. But you can "fight" in rugby or especially boxing without needing to kill anyone, and "defend" in the same sports as well. I realise I'm taking the words out of context, but I'm trying to prove that the Army is not only there who can fight and defend.

    The army peacekeeps through lethal force. Incorrect: the army peacekeeps through being a stabilising factor without which a country would break into anarchy, viz. Sierra Leone - and the people accept that.
    But the police here, how do they keep the peace? Through the threat of the law. So does the army. Military law. And lethal force is meant to be a *last resort*. If persuasion and sanctions don't work. Just like the police here. Reprimands, fines - all lead up to arrest if the law isn't followed. You are right in saying that the army uses lethal force to attain their goal, but only as a last resort in ideal cases.

    The reason I would want to practice disclipline and leadership in an army context is because it is stringently hierarchical (structured), everyone knows their place, it teaches, and you have to teach, directly about a relevant profession available as a career - which is a career I have subsequently decided to take after much deliberation, continuing with the UOTC, and finally is something worthwhile doing, giving you focus. I don't think anyone commanding me, or me commanding others in the CCF, has ever, or ever will, mention the word "kill" or "death" when handling a rifle in that organisation.

    The shooting team at Merchy is part of the CCF, really. Guns are used for marksmanship competitions, and are never used to shoot at *people*. I agree, Smeets, that a gun in very definition is for killing people, and I understood that when you pointed it out. A gun is a necessary part of a soldier these days. There are plenty of groups out there that do similar things to the CCF (eg. Scouts) without the guns etc. But the CCF wouldn't be the CCF if it wasn't in an army context, would it?

    I like this discussion. I like arguments full stop.
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    I did Silver D of E over the hottest weekend in UK recorded history - it almost killed me. Mind you, the experience was a beneficial one, and it felt like a real achievement. Plus, there is nothing like collapsing in front of a campfire after a long day of being lost in the bogs and hillocks of the New Forest with inadaquate water.
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    wow long posts on this thread :eek: !


    well i did CCF (marines) for two or three years and got bored with it so then jumped straight into D.ofE. Gold since you don't have to do the first two (bronze,silver) to do it - just need to be 17. D of E is very impressive on the UCAS form, but you want to be able to say your doing/plan to do the gold as the others aren't considered hugely special.

    with the CCF, it's again impressive if you rise up the ranks in your school and become lance-corporal, NCO etc but you want to stand out if you can.

    just PM me if you want any advice
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    Yeah, GengisKahn, there's nothing like a friendly discussion.

    I'm not really sure how I would ideally replace the structure of the CCF. It would definitely take a lot of careful planning. Perhaps they could make up their own ranks. I'm not suggesting the CCF IS fundimentally wrong, or that you or anyone else is wrong to do it, just that I have my own views on it, and they were, in part, a reason for my choosing DoE.


    You're quite right about the words being used in other contexts. To be fair, I never really consider their other uses when making the original post. I still feel, though, that when the army "fight" people their intention is to physically incapacitate them, be that by killing them or seriously wounding them. That is of course true with all the other armed forces.

    It's interesting indeed that you didn't fire a gun more than once. I suppose its something that varries quite alot between schools. At my school we have an indoor rifle range, and keep cadet rifles on the premises. I know that the rifles are regularly handed out so cadets can be taught how to look after them. I fully agree, and understand, that at CCF the 'teachers' are teaching marskmanship as opposed to killing, and I agree that marskmanship is a skill in itself. My point here is that the army (who help fund etc CCF) don't carry guns for the sake of marskmanship. They have guns for the sake of wounding and potentially killing people. I just feel if you want to learn marskmanship skills you don't need to do dress up as a soldier, and use weapons provided by an organisation who have weapons for the sole purpose of shooting at people, to do it.

    This brings me on to the imfamous "artillary camp" where the cadets apprently get taught how to use big ass guns, as well as getting to fire them. While I can vaguely justify the CCF's "we have/use guns because they are tools and shooting at targets is a sporting discipline" excuse, I cannot see any reason why you would use, or learn how to use, artillay unless it was to kill someone (or more likely, kill lots of people) or blow something up. Although they practise using these guns in empty fields etc, I still feel that their only purpose is to cause mass distruction: to me there is no discipline of artillary.

    As for peace keeping, you ultimately know more about it that me. I'm not going to argue, except to reiterate the point we've both made that the soldiers carry their weapons at all times and are trained and prepared to use them to kill.

    As you've been in the CCF and indeed want to be in the army, you know more about the issue than I... or so I would hope! I didn't know you went to Merchi. (unless we spoke about it in another thread and I've forgotten). I still go to stew mel. The shooting team there is very much a part of the CCF.
 
 
 
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