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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Are you going to compare the amount of deaths caused by the government in Brazil and the amount of deaths caused by the governments of North Korea, Soviet Union, China, or North Vietnam?
    No a)because you have to take into account their populations anyway, and b)because in this case it is impossible to provide a rigorous scientific definition for "cause", and c) because the amount of time a system has been in place is also extremly important to the data....overall it would be a vague, speculative anlaysis
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Cuba. It didn't do the last two things.

    The point is, Allende was a democratic socialist and was the choice of the people of Chile. Just like at the time of the revolution in Cuba, Castro was the choice of the people. But without democracy, he cannot keep this claim. Allended, at the time, could,

    The Associated Press in the Havana Journal regarding Cuban salaries and the costs of various products. shows that Cuba is in dire poverty.

    Average salaries, per month:

    Teacher: $9.60
    Business administrator: $11.35
    Engineer: $14.40
    Doctor, general practitioner: $27
    Doctor, specialist: $31
    Taxi Driver: $6, plus tips

    Cost of products:
    Rice, per pound: 14 cents
    Beans, per pound: 35 cents
    Bread, per pound: 39 cents
    Sugar, per pound: 47 cents
    Pork, per pound: 96 cents
    Can of soda: 42 cents
    Bottle of rum: $2.30
    Package of 20 cigarettes: 27 cents
    Roll of toilet paper: 19 cents
    Milk, per gallon: $4.55 (available at much lower prices for children under 7)
    Cheese, per pound: $4-$5 (can be found for half this price on black market)
    Cooking oil, per quart: $2.15
    Box of cereal: $4-$10 (depending on brand)
    Canned soup (Campbell's Cream of Mushroom): $2.50

    Transportation:
    Buses or fixed-route taxis for Cubans: 1 cent
    Taxis for tourists: 96 cents per mile

    Entertainment:
    Movie theater: 4 cents
    Sporting event: 4 cents
    Concert: 4 cents to $25
    A night at the Tropicana cabaret: $65-$85

    Utilities, per month (based on consumption):
    Water: 15-20 cents
    Gas for stoves: 8-38 cents
    Electricity: 38 cents to $11.50
    Telephone: 38 cents to $11.50
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    How many of their own people have capitalist countries killed and how many of their own people have communist countries killed?
    I didn't see this post, but i guess the last one is my answer
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    Ah, so killing thousands in the name of communism is understandable while killing thousands in the name of capitalist is not?
    How did you work that one out from what I wrote?

    Do you really have to discredit yourself in every post you make?
    Your aloof unexplained posts really contribute nothing to the debate. If you are going to make a point please explain it.

    'Communism' hasn't killed a single person. Nowhere in Communism must you kill people. However, Capitalism feeds of death and poverty.
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    (Original post by naivesincerity)
    No a)because you have to take into account their populations anyway, and b)because in this case it is impossible to provide a rigorous scientific definition for "cause", and c) because the amount of time a system has been in place is also extremly important to the data....overall it would be a speculative anlaysis
    There is an easier way to compare. How many people were killed by the regimes of North and South Korea? West and East Germany? Estonia and Finland? Austria and Hungary?
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    There is an easier way to compare. How many people were killed by the regimes of North and South Korea? West and East Germany? Estonia and Finland? Austria and Hungary?
    Ever considered the possibility of biased,fictional data?--i'd imagine you find fairly different statistical results on neo-con websites to Marxist websites.
    Regardless of that, i've already answered, there are too many other variables and too much ambiguity to possibly assess it quantatively
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Cuba. It didn't do the last two things.

    The point is, Allende was a democratic socialist and was the choice of the people of Chile. Just like at the time of the revolution in Cuba, Castro was the choice of the people. But without democracy, he cannot keep this claim. Allended, at the time, could,
    There was a general strike at the time to overthrow Allende, and the US and many democratic centre and right wing politicians supported Pinochet's coup because they thought that he would hold elections as soon as the country had become stable. As it turns out, he didn't. It is thought that had Allende held elections, he would have lost, but his actions were paralysing the Chilean economy and he was nationalising US and foreign owned companies, so the US and opposition politicians thought that they had no other choice than to overthrow him. They also thought that Allende was trying to gather power into his own arms.
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    Do think the Trade Embargo has a result on this data you point out?

    I also believe Cubans have free healthcare (better than US healthcare) and free education. And, apart from the milk, those prices and wages show that no one starves in Cuba.

    As I have said, I wish to see democracy for Cuba and an end to the disgusting arms embargo on the country.

    In regard to Pinochet, he was NEVER lected, he did NOTHING for the poor and political opponents were trated MUCH worse than those in Cuba. Pinochet was also backed by foreign conspiring powers unlike Castro.
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    (Original post by Lord Waddell)
    no other choice.
    Bit of an extreme phrase isn't it? The world superpower America was so desperate it had "no other choice"but to enforce their ways on a small, poor Latin American country? No..they did what they felt like, it was in their own interests and they knew they could get away with it
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    (Original post by naivesincerity)
    Ever considered the possibility of biased,fictional data?--i'd imagine you find fairly different statistical results on neo-con websites to Marxist websites.
    Regardless of that, i've already answered, there are too many other variables and too much ambiguity to possibly assess it quantatively
    Are you really going to claim that West Germany killed as many of its citizens as East Germany?
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    (Original post by naivesincerity)
    Bit of an extreme phrase isn't it? The world superpower America was so desperate it had "no other choice"but to enforce their ways on a small, poor Latin American country? No..they did what they felt like, it was in their own interests and they knew they could get away with it
    Did you actually read the rest of my post? Chile was a relatively rich country before Allende. The opposition politicians and military leaders felt that they had no choice but to launch a coup because the Chilean economy was collapsing before their eyes.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Are you really going to claim that West Germany killed as many of its citizens as East Germany?
    They killed a fair few others which happens to bother me equally(unless you want to make a point about it being a member of my own family, etc etc)
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    (Original post by Lord Waddell)
    Did you actually read the rest of my post? Chile was a relatively rich country before Allende. The opposition politicians and military leaders felt that they had no choice but to launch a coup because the Chilean economy was collapsing before their eyes.
    I'm talking about America's support for it, i believe out of pure self interest, some believe out of altruism/principle, thats the debate we were having-- I'm well aware the democratically elected government was making a balls-up of the economy, that has never once been relevant to what i'm talking about..it may be relevant to somebody elses post, fine
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    Do think the Trade Embargo has a result on this data you point out?
    Businesses should not trade with people who would want to take away their freedom and oppress their people.

    I also believe Cubans have free healthcare (better than US healthcare) and free education.
    No it is appaling. 6.8% of the population is illiterate something unacceptbale today. Also its not free since their wages pay for it.

    And, apart from the milk, those prices and wages show that no one starves in Cuba.
    No one may starve but people go hungry. Not so in capitalist countries.
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    (Original post by naivesincerity)
    I'm talking about America's support for it, i believe out of pure self interest, some believe out of altruism/principle, thats the debate we were having-- I'm well aware the democratically elected government was making a balls-up of the economy, that has never once been relevant to what i'm talking about..it may be relevant to somebody elses post, fine
    What was America's reason for supporting Pinochet other than preventing the rise of communism in Chile?

    They killed a fair few others which happens to bother me equally(unless you want to make a point about it being a member of my own family, etc etc)
    Is that why millions of West Germans fled to East Germany? Oh wait.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    What was America's reason for supporting Pinochet other than preventing the rise of communism in Chile?



    Is that why millions of West Germans fled to East Germany? Oh wait.
    :confused: To the first point--i completely agree :banghead: the question i'm asking is whether it was arrogant,pure self-interest or altruism...(or something in between) To the second--They fled because West Germany didn't kill THEIR OWN people! And didn't kill others if you're talking about post 1945, but if you're talking 1939-45, they laid off a fair few innocents, for their ethnicity, or political beliefs, which is morally repugnant, but you have again switched the conversation to a debate about a country killing IT'S OWN people.

    You are a master of evasion, you should go into politics
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    Businesses should not trade with people who would want to take away their freedom and oppress their people.
    Where was the embargo against Iraq in the 80s? Pinochet? Batista? Burma? Indonesia?China? Vietnam? Karimov? Saudis? Hosni Mobarak? Kuwait? Double standards.

    No it is appaling. 6.8% of the population is illiterate something unacceptbale today. Also its not free since their wages pay for it.
    According to the CIA worldfactbook, literacy is 97% in Cuba. Compared to 87.9% in neighbouring Jamaica, and 52.9% in neighbouring Haiti.

    Also its not free since their wages pay for it.
    You know what is meant by the commonly used 'free healthcare' and 'free education' in the world of politics.

    No one may starve but people go hungry. Not so in capitalist countries.
    I bet the homeless go hungry. I bet many asylum seekers go hungry. Not to mention the thousands of pensioners who die each year because they can't afford to heat their homes.
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    I think his crimes are inexcusible.

    Lots of countries managed to tranform themselves from backwaters into decent, developed nation states through market economics without the iron-fisted tyranny, and I'm certain Chilé might have been able to do the same if the people there wanted it, too.

    Though, I think he stands out from the average tyrant, i.e. communists; since he reestablished democracy and left behind him a country with a hopeful future. That doesn't excuse him, though, any more than Stalin's industrial miracle excuses his murder.
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    (Original post by JonD)
    I think his crimes are inexcusible.

    Lots of countries managed to tranform themselves from backwaters into decent, developed nation states through market economics without the iron-fisted tyranny, and I'm certain Chilé might have been able to do the same if the people there wanted it, too.
    That ignores the fact that all of Chile's neighbors took the same path. Pinochet was far from the most ruthless leader in South America.
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    Pinochet was far from the most ruthless leader in South America.
    Does that justify his actions then? If not, what was the point of making this "point"?
 
 
 
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