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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    And the point being what?

    Fact is that non-socialist states has better standards of living. FACT.
    Only civilised countries..
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Well congrats... but its still not good enough for a native speaker. If your native speaking friends failed - then they are either:

    a) Dumb
    b) Lazy.
    well u cant expect someone to learn more than this in 2 years.. and whatever they are, there mother tongue is english and they failed in it.. my mother tongue is totally different and i gave my A levels exams, without studying it in here..
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    (Original post by Gwenyth!)
    Lawz - which region?

    I've been about four times and tend to prefer certain areas over others - in terms of tourist potential, they vary greatly.
    Mainly just in Havana, and a few times to Santa Clara. I didn tget to see much of the country-side ... but I did like Havana a lot
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    (Original post by che guevara)
    well u cant expect someone to learn more than this in 2 years.. and whatever they are, there mother tongue is english and they failed in it.. my mother tongue is totally different and i gave my A levels exams, without studying it in here..
    I never said you should know more. I simply said that if you were from the uK your standard would be terrible.
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    (Original post by che guevara)
    Only civilised countries..
    What? How do you think countries like Norway, or Malaysia or Sweden, or Switzerland, Canada or Belgium became civlised and successful? Capitalism. Not even empire or conquest - CAPITALISM
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)

    Remind me who the Contras were?
    Right Wing rebels. But that isn't the point. There are two sides to the coin, and the many left wing guerrillas in South America were responsible for the overthrowal of democractic governments by the military, who thought that they weren't trying hard enough to defeat the left wing rebels, funded by Cuba. The Columbian rebels who recieve/send help to the IRA are a case in point, trying to overthrow Columbia's democratic regime.
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    Northumbrian: Out of interest, would you support enacting Castro's policies through dictatorship in Britain, if they could provide the exact same results?
    I think that's too complicated for a yes or no answer. The position Cuba was in at the start of the revolucion is very different from the position Britain is in now.

    And if you must know - the answer to your question is pretty much all of them except the US.
    Are you sure about that?

    That the majority of refugees from Cuba are somehow ex-aristocrats
    I do not believe I did say the majority.

    Have you ever been to Cuba? I have - the way they live aint great... there is more to life than free education and healthcare.
    Unfortunately my trip, scheduled for February of this year, was called off. When was the last demo against Castro in Cuba? When was the last revolt? I can tell you however, that a million people fill the streets every MayDay.

    Who said this was down to Castro? Who;s to say its not mainly due to a natural progression and advancement that most of the western world has enjoyed - including many of the countries in that region - such as Puerto Rico, Dominica, Cayman, and much of the Caribbean?
    There is 100% employment in those countries? There are no people so poor they sell their bodies to eat?


    is universal health care a good thing? Sure - yes... is not starving good too? Yes - sure is ... but you assume that this would still be rampant if not for Castro... there is much to make one think otherwise.
    I doubt there would be universal health care, universal education, 100% employment etc. Is this the case in surrounding countries afterall?

    Regardless - its not for me to judge whether their lives are better because of Castro - nor you -
    Do you think people are better off with Saddam Hussein gone? Have you ever answered that question before?

    ... and since they have no way to vote - they clearly dont -
    I have seen to great internal movements against Castro. I have seen massive shows of support.

    Capitalism. Not even empire or conquest - CAPITALISM
    Are you saying you want Scandinavian tax levels here? :wink:
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    When was the last demo against Castro in Cuba?
    They'd get shot!!

    There is 100% employment in those countries?
    There is not 100% emplyment in Cuba.

    I have seen massive shows of support.
    Same for Saddam, Stalin, Hitler, etc
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    When was the last demo against Castro in Cuba? When was the last revolt? I can tell you however, that a million people fill the streets every MayDay.
    Perhaps the fact that its a police state, which has been known to harass, imprison and even kill "enemies of the revolution" might, just might have something to do with that?
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Are you sure about that?
    Yes. pretty much - you have evidence otherwise?


    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    I do not believe I did say the majority.
    So what is your point? Mine is that a large number of people leave Cuba because they do not see life there as desirable, and are prepared to risk death to get away from it.

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Unfortunately my trip, scheduled for February of this year, was called off. When was the last demo against Castro in Cuba? When was the last revolt? I can tell you however, that a million people fill the streets every MayDay.
    Oh PLEASE... :rolleyes:... demonstrations are banned... I mean .. seriously - when was the last time you saw demonstrations in North Korea? They have big marches too - does that mean its a modern day utopia?

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    There is 100% employment in those countries? There are no people so poor they sell their bodies to eat?
    1) Cuba has nothing LIKE 100% employment
    2) Cuba has LOTS of prostitution ... Ive seen groups of them with my own eyes.


    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    I doubt there would be universal health care, universal education, 100% employment etc. Is this the case in surrounding countries afterall?
    Free healthcare free education ? Yes .. generally.

    And as said - the notion that 100 % employment exists in Cuba is sheer fantasy

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Do you think people are better off with Saddam Hussein gone? Have you ever answered that question before?
    Do I think they will be in the long run? Yes.

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    I have seen to great internal movements against Castro. I have seen massive shows of support.
    Again - see north korea... I mean .. this is entirely spurious ... the notion that a country like Cuba is wonderful when people brave the open ocean in 1950s cars turned into rafts for a chance to get to the US is obviously flawed.

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Are you saying you want Scandinavian tax levels here? :wink:
    Scandinavia has high tax... many of the other countries I listed dont. Indeed, the point is simply that prosperity has come about through capitalism and innovation. They may have high tax, but Scandinvia has LOW regulation, flexible employment laws, and relatively low Corproate taxes.
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    They'd get shot!!
    Every unpopular regime faces counter demos. The Mullahs have killed hundreds times more than Castro and they face annual protests.

    Yes. pretty much - you have evidence otherwise?
    Well education at university level isn't free in the UK for starters. Is it in those countries either?

    So what is your point? Mine is that a large number of people leave Cuba because they do not see life there as desirable, and are prepared to risk death to get away from it.
    I agee. My point is that I never claimed most escapees are the ex elite.

    Oh PLEASE... ... demonstrations are banned... I mean .. seriously - when was the last time you saw demonstrations in North Korea? They have big marches too - does that mean its a modern day utopia?
    You don't generally get much footage at all from NK. I have seen many pictures from Iran, Burma, Iraq, China, Egypt and many other dictatorships, far worse than that of Cuba.

    Do I think they will be in the long run? Yes.
    So you can judge the Iraqis and their situation, but we can't cast comment on Cuban living standards?

    Again - see north korea... I mean .. this is entirely spurious ... the notion that a country like Cuba is wonderful when people brave the open ocean in 1950s cars turned into rafts for a chance to get to the US is obviously flawed.
    You've seen a million civlians gather to support the regime in NK? Who said Cuba is wonderful? Why do you keep argung against something no one has said?

    flexible employment laws
    What's the Swedish minimum wage?
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Well education at university level isn't free in the
    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    UK for starters. Is it in those countries either?



    In many of them it is. But thats besides the point - you equate university education in Cuba with it in the UK? The point isnt JUST whether you have to pay SOMETHING LATER ON... the point is what you get for your money. Anyone can create a rinky dink higher education system and claim its wonderful and free at th epoint of use - but I know which one I would pick between a degree from say the LSE having to pay back some money later in life and a free edcucation from the university of havana.

    Its like saying - "My African witchdoctor is free" but YOU in the UK have to pay the NHS prescription charge! aha! I have it better!" :rolleyes:

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    I agee. My point is that I never claimed most escapees are the ex elite.


    Perhaps – but you implied it:

    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Oh also - simple question - if Life in Cuba is so great - why do people pile themselves onto fruit crates and try to float to Miami?


    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Many of them are the previous elite who saw their wealth being distributed and didn't like it.



    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    You don't generally get much footage at all from NK. I have seen many pictures from Iran, Burma, Iraq, China, Egypt and many other dictatorships, far worse than that of Cuba.


    Youre comparing apples and oranges. The fact of that matter is that in many cases people are shot and arrested in Cuba for protesting… do they have it better than others in the world? Sure – So is there LESS reason to protest? Sure – but the fact is that people still flee the country by life-threatening ways, and political repression is necessary to keep down dissent. I mean really .. I can believe that you are trying to argue that people are pree to voide any opinion they like in Cuba. You are using the lack of dissent as an argument that “it can be all that bad”.

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    So you can judge the Iraqis and their situation, but we can't cast comment on Cuban living standards?


    You asked me if I thought they would end up being better off. I gave my opinion. I see no problem there. I never said we cant comment on Cuban living standards – what you CANT comment on is whether they would prefer Castro to be in power or not …

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    You've seen a million civlians gather to support the regime in NK?


    Regularly.

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Who said Cuba is wonderful? Why do you keep argung against something no one has said?

    I was exaggerating the point obviously – you are trying to claim that Castro has been a good thing for Cuba. I disagree.

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    What's the Swedish minimum wage?


    I have no idea. What’s your point?
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    Northumbrian: Out of interest, would you support enacting Castro's policies through dictatorship in Britain, if they could provide the exact same results?
    I think that's too complicated for a yes or no answer.
    Well, if for Britain to become as prosperous as Cuba, it would take limiting freedom of speech and suspending a few people's human rights, would you support it?
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    Its like saying - "My African witchdoctor is free" but YOU in the UK have to pay the NHS prescription charge! aha! I have it better!"
    So all these Cuban doctors aren't fit to practice?

    Perhaps – but you implied it:
    Not at all. I said many are and many are leaving because of democracy.

    You are using the lack of dissent as an argument that “it can be all that bad”.
    Yes. And you are saying that people would rather leave through shark infested waters en masse than have a demonstration. Rather odd wouldn't you say?

    Regularly.
    Just got back from pyongyang?

    I have no idea. What’s your point?
    That regulations aren't that lax in Scandinavia.

    Well, if for Britain to become as prosperous as Cuba, it would take limiting freedom of speech and suspending a few people's human rights, would you support it?
    No, because we are more prosperous than Cuba.
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    So all these Cuban doctors aren't fit to practice?
    As you know all too well I was using the analogy to compare the tertiary education systems.

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Not at all. I said many are and many are leaving because of democracy.
    No you said that ALSO - but the fact is many leave because they are tired of living in poverty and tired of having nothing.

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Yes. And you are saying that people would rather leave through shark infested waters en masse than have a demonstration. Rather odd wouldn't you say?
    One may mean certain death for scant reward, the other may mean a great risk for a new life - whats odd about that?

    Regardless - its the truth - do people demonstrate? Not really - do they try and Swim to Miami? yes ...

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Just got back from pyongyang?
    I have this wonderful thing called tv ... its great - images and sound from a great distance .... you should check it out.

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    That regulations aren't that lax in Scandinavia.
    Relative to France, Germany, and say - Belgium they are... Indeed they are in favour of the same liberal economic reforms for the EU that Tony Blair is.
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    As you know all too well I was using the analogy to compare the tertiary education systems.
    And if you use your logic, Cuban doctors are much much worse than British doctors.

    No you said that ALSO - but the fact is many leave because they are tired of living in poverty and tired of having nothing.
    I said that also. I said the two in equal terms. Not once did I say, or imply that most people left because of their previous position on the social ladder.

    One may mean certain death for scant reward, the other may mean a great risk for a new life - whats odd about that?
    You think they'd all be executed en masse?

    Regardless - its the truth - do people demonstrate? Not really - do they try and Swim to Miami? yes ...
    Many swim to Miami over many years. More stay and do not protest.

    I have this wonderful thing called tv ... its great - images and sound from a great distance .... you should check it out.
    When have there been regular footage of mass civilian support for the dictatorship in North Korea? Are you confusing this with army parades?
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    And if you use your logic, Cuban doctors are much much worse than British doctors.
    My point is you focus only on whether or not its free. That makes no comment on the quality of the services. Anyone can provide free "education" or "health care" - they can tnecessarily provide high quality.

    Short question - would you rather a degree from University of Havana for free or one from say Cambridge for 3k a year you only have to pay back years down the line at the price of a McDonald's meal a week?

    you only have to ask the question to know the answer.

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    I said that also. I said the two in equal terms. Not once did I say, or imply that most people left because of their previous position on the social ladder.
    Linguistic wriggling. You said "many" - which simply isnt borne out in fact or in logic. The aristocracy already left - 50 years on those on floatin buicks are other people entirely.

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    You think they'd all be executed en masse?
    I think enough of them would be in enough trouble to ensure they dont do it... I really cant beleive this - are you actually trying to say that its no big deal for them to protest in Cuba? That they have nothing genuine to fear?

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Many swim to Miami over many years. More stay and do not protest.
    Youre clutching at straws. if the vast majority of Cubans are in favour of Castro why the need for polticial repression?

    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    When have there been regular footage of mass civilian support for the dictatorship in North Korea? Are you confusing this with army parades?
    Exactly my point - STAGED support - as it is in Cuba.
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    Short question - would you rather a degree from University of Havana for free or one from say Cambridge for 3k a year you only have to pay back years down the line at the price of a McDonald's meal a week?
    Cambridge is a candidate for best university in the world. Most countries can't offer that.
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    Linguistic wriggling.
    Par vous-meme

    I really cant beleive this - are you actually trying to say that its no big deal for them to protest in Cuba? That they have nothing genuine to fear?
    I'm not saying that. I'm saying if it was as bad as you say, they would risk it anyway. Like they do in Iran and China where punishment is, or has been, worse.

    Youre clutching at straws. if the vast majority of Cubans are in favour of Castro why the need for polticial repression?
    It's his style. He's authoritarian. He doesn't want anyone interfering at all with any plans. Also, it would allow the US a base in Cuba from where they could hamper the revolucion. I say give them the vote.

    Exactly my point - STAGED support - as it is in Cuba.
    Military parades do not involve civilians. The million person marches in Cuba are not staged. How many people have staged a million person protest? Me clutching at straws? Pot, kettle, black.
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Cambridge is a candidate for best university in the world. Most countries can't offer that.
    Ok then ... from UCL? From KCL? From Bristol? From Nottingham University? Still take Havana university?

    Do you recognise that though free the quality of the services in Cuba may not be comparabe to those in the UK US etc etc?
 
 
 
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