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    (Original post by Vienna)
    To redefine marriage as a political and legal arrangement undermines its importance and the stability on which society is founded.
    That is your opinion, one which i certainly do not share. If anything, i feel same-sex marriage is healthy for what is currently a suffering and outdated institution such as the church.
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    I would be urged to agree if somebody was asking you to go and marry another man, but to be honest, it has nothing to do with you.

    If two men want to get married then let them, it is up to them how they view marriage and if they are happy getting married then good on them.I don't really think homosexuals care whether you consider their marriage "void" or not, it stands for committment and respect.

    This is yet another very positive move in Western Europe, with another country promoting personal choice and liberty over old, outdated and prejudice doctrines.

    Why should marriage be restricted to heterosexuals anyway? Where does it say this in the bible?
    It would be narrow minded to treat marriage as thought it wasnt a social institution.
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    That is your opinion, one which i certainly do not share. If anything, i feel same-sex marriage is healthy for what is currently a suffering and outdated institution such as the church.
    Im atheist, I dont see how it has great relevance to the CofE.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    It would be narrow minded to treat marriage as thought it wasnt a social institution.
    No, it would be realistic, and it would reflect society in a very legitimate way.

    It does not state in the bible that "marriage" should only ever be between a man and a woman. It is a myth that has built up over time, and change is way overdue.
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    That is your opinion, one which i certainly do not share
    What perception of marriage will future generations have if you can shop around for the latest civil union arrangement? Where does it talk of commitment? Where does it talk of a universally recognised basis on which we should raise a child?
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Im atheist, I dont see how it has great relevance to the CofE.
    Precisely.
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    No, it would be realistic, and it would reflect society in a very legitimate way.
    So it is a social institution, but its none of society's business if same sex marriage is legalised or not?
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    Precisely.
    None of my arguments relate to religion or the church.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    What perception of marriage will future generations have if you can shop around for the latest civil union arrangement? Where does it talk of commitment? Where does it talk of a universally recognised basis on which we should raise a child?
    "shop around"? That is a gross misinterpretation.

    Marriage between two of the same-sex carries just as much commitment as one between a man and a woman, why wouldn't it?
    Surely you're not arguing that it should be incorporated by the church?
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    So it is a social institution, but its none of society's business if same sex marriage is legalised or not?
    I said it is making marriage accessible to more of society. Encouraging some certain sections of society to abandon their homophobic tendencies is an obstacle, of course.
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    I would be urged to agree if somebody was asking you to go and marry another man, but to be honest, it has nothing to do with you.

    If two men want to get married then let them, it is up to them how they view marriage and if they are happy getting married then good on them.I don't really think homosexuals care whether you consider their marriage "void" or not, it stands for committment and respect.

    This is yet another very positive move in Western Europe, with another country promoting personal choice and liberty over old, outdated and prejudice doctrines.

    Why should marriage be restricted to heterosexuals anyway? Where does it say this in the bible?
    With respect you're wrong. Whether homosexuals would care about what I think or not, I agree, isn't very important. But what God thinks surely is? If they don't think that then why bother with a religious ceremony?

    God would consider the marriage void. Read the bible. Learn about the Holy Sacraments; pay special attention to sacramental propers, understand something about Christian dogmatics. Then speak.

    Don't bother talking to me about "outdated prejudices aand doctrines" This is a matter of Scriptural warrant, not this weeks fad.
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    "shop around"? That is a gross misinterpretation.
    Of what?

    Marriage between two of the same-sex carries just as much commitment as one between a man and a woman, why wouldn't it?
    Because its not made on the premise of building and sustaining a family.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    With respect you're wrong. Whether homosexuals would care about what I think or not, I agree, isn't very important. But what God thinks surely is? If they don't think that then why bother with a religious ceremony?

    God would consider the marriage void. Read the bible. Learn about the Holy Sacraments; pay special attention to sacramental propers, understand something about Christian dogmatics. Then speak.

    Don't bother talking to me about "outdated prejudices aand doctrines" This is a matter of Scriptural warrant, not this weeks fad.
    I am not going to reading through the whole bible. I want you to justify your claims that god would "consider it void".
    As far as i'm aware, god has no 'objections' to marriages which don't supposedly "conform" to the rules that people have learnt to believe.

    I'm sure god would have no problem allowing two homosexuals to "marry" each other.
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    I said it is making marriage accessible to more of society.
    Why is that good if marriage is undermined and devalued in the process? Theres no point in allowing more people to marry if it loses its universal value. Why not allow more than one person to marry?

    Encouraging some certain sections of society to abandon their homophobic tendencies is an obstacle, of course.
    Are you suggesting that those who dont support same sex marriage are homophobic?
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Because its not made on the premise of the building a sustaining a family.
    There are plenty of homosexuals who encourage the family. Many homosexual couples want nothing more than to adopt a child and have a normal life.
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    Vienna, if a woman was incapable of giving birth, would you deny her the right to marriage?

    After all, she could not possibly intend to "build" a family...
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    There are plenty of homosexuals who encourage the family. Many homosexual couples want nothing more than to adopt a child and have a normal life.
    A normal life? That sounds terribly homophobic.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    A normal life? That sounds terribly homophobic.
    It does? Conformists in society will always persue what is considered to be the "normal life".
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)

    Why should marriage be restricted to heterosexuals anyway? Where does it say this in the bible?
    Holy Scripture affirms that man and woman were created for one another; 'It is not good that the man should be alone. The woman, 'flesh of his flesh', i.e. his counterpart, his equal, his nearest in all things, is given to him by God as a 'helpmate'; she thus represents God from whom comes our help. Therefore a man leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.

    Genesis 2:24

    satisfied? I can accurately predict that you will not be satisfied, even though it answers your question. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    Vienna, if a woman was incapable of giving birth, would you deny her the right to marriage?

    After all, she could not possibly intend to "build" a family...
    I wouldnt alter the law to represent that case no. What a husband and wife do is upto them, but the sanctity of marriage is built on the premise of the family unit. If a married couple never intend to have children, fine, it doesnt alter this concept. If we change the law to recognise a union, between two people who cannot have children, as being the equivalent, it does alter the perception of marriage and its value in society. Just as I would oppose civil unions between a man and a woman on the basis of legal conveniences. What use is a legal agreement to a child?
 
 
 
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