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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    It does? Conformists in society will always persue what is considered to be the "normal life".
    So homosexuals trying to pioneer a change in our legal and moral codes are conformists?

    Should we change the sanctity of marriage, which has been a fundamental building block of family and community, because homosexuals cant stop looking over their shoulder?
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    If we change the law to recognise a union between two people who cannot have children as being the equivalent, it does alter the perception of marriage and its value in society.
    Okay... Well the woman in question, like many millions in the world can not give birth, i think it would be awfully selfish to deny her the right to marriage because of this.
    The situation is exactly the same with same-sex partners, with the exception of their sexuality.

    This is a matter of personal choice and preference, and people deserve to be "recognised" as they choose. Simple.

    It is not, in my opinion devaluing the doctrine of marriage, it is promoting marriage and demonstrating that it is important for all to show committment to the one you love.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    So homosexuals trying to pioneer a change in our legal and moral codes are conformists?
    I was simply stating that there is an existent sense of the "normal life".

    Homosexuals don't always conform to the traditional morals of society, but morals AND the law are very much organic, and it is one of the most important aspects of being party a democracy- the right to stand for what you feel you should have the right to.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Same sex marriage, and worse, same sex unions, could severly undermine the fundamental basis of society. Reducing marriage to a legal agreement speaks nothing of commitment, family and the stability a child needs.
    So does this mean that the fundamental basis of society has already been undermined given that same gendered marriages existed in the British Isles before foreign interference came along? Would you advocate tighter restrictions on divorce to show that there is commitment and perhaps make cheating whilst engaged a criminal offence? I've known a fair few to commit adultery whilst engaged and then I look at the divorce rate. I wonder if people's attitudes themselves are the ones which undermine the fundamental basis of society rather than the few homosexuals who wish to get married. As for stability for children, I guess who could always infertilise people with strange personally disorders so as to protect any would have been children I guess.
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    I am not going to reading through the whole bible. I want you to justify your claims that god would "consider it void".
    As far as i'm aware, god has no 'objections' to marriages which don't supposedly "conform" to the rules that people have learnt to believe.

    I'm sure god would have no problem allowing two homosexuals to "marry" each other.
    How are you sure if you're not prepared to seek out God's word? It must be wonderful to simply know all about God without bothering to educate yourself on the Scriptures etc. Now that's some kind of grace!
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    Okay... Well the woman in question, like many millions in the world can not give birth, i think it would be awfully selfish to deny her the right to marriage because of this.
    The situation is exactly the same with same-sex partners, with the exception of their sexuality.
    It is legally and socially recognised for a man to wed a woman. That is because a man and woman offer the basis of a family.
    If a woman who cannot give birth decides to get married, this concept is not altered.

    If we alter the legal and social recognition for same sex marriage, we discount that feature of marriage that distinguishes it above other forms of relationship and union. To discount that premise of the family, is to undermine the universal message of marriage and to reduce it to a legal agreement.

    That poses a threat to our children, the family and our society.

    This is a matter of personal choice and preference, and people deserve to be "recognised" as they choose. Simple.
    People should recognise as they choose.
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    So does this mean that the fundamental basis of society has already been undermined given that same gendered marriages existed in the British Isles before foreign interference came along? Would you advocate tighter restrictions on divorce to show that there is commitment and perhaps make cheating whilst engaged a criminal offence? I've known a fair few to commit adultery whilst engaged and then I look at the divorce rate. I wonder if people's attitudes themselves are the ones which undermine the fundamental basis of society rather than the few homosexuals who wish to get married. As for stability for children, I guess who could always infertilise people with strange personally disorders so as to protect any would have been children I guess.
    Divorce rates are higher because marriage is being diluted down to an agreement between two people. The views on this thread demonstrate that noone can make a clear distinction between a contract and marriage. The current government more guilty than most.

    The value of marriage shouldnt require punishment to defend against divorce.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    It is legally and socially recognised for a man to wed a woman. That is because a man and woman offer the basis of a family.
    If a woman who cannot give birth decides to get married, this concept is not altered.

    If we alter the legal and social recognition for same sex marriage, we discount that feature of marriage that distinguishes it above other forms of relationship and union. To discount that premise of the family, is to undermine the universal message of marriage and to reduce it to a legal agreement.
    It is once again variable between different individuals to come to a conclusion as to what they feel is "above" any other forms of relationship.
    You regard marriage in the church as "above" any other as a matter of personal preference.

    That poses a threat to our children, the family and our society.
    Don't you think thats a little dramatic? This is all your personal opinion, remember that.


    People should recognise as they choose.
    Precisely, which is why the load of brainwashing christistians marching in Spain was disturbing.
    Theres a fine line between "recognising" someones status and discriminating against their right to it.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Divorce rates are higher because marriage is being diluted down to an agreement between two people.
    Really? What makes you come to that conclusion?
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Holy Scripture affirms that man and woman were created for one another; 'It is not good that the man should be alone. The woman, 'flesh of his flesh', i.e. his counterpart, his equal, his nearest in all things, is given to him by God as a 'helpmate'; she thus represents God from whom comes our help. Therefore a man leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.

    Genesis 2:24

    satisfied? I can accurately predict that you will not be satisfied, even though it answers your question. :rolleyes:
    well, beekeeper....?
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Holy Scripture affirms that man and woman were created for one another; 'It is not good that the man should be alone. The woman, 'flesh of his flesh', i.e. his counterpart, his equal, his nearest in all things, is given to him by God as a 'helpmate'; she thus represents God from whom comes our help. Therefore a man leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.

    Genesis 2:24

    satisfied? I can accurately predict that you will not be satisfied, even though it answers your question
    Holy scripture also affirms many things including slavery. Would you like God's country to enslave its neighbours?
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    (Original post by yawn)
    well, beekeeper....?
    What has that got to do with marriage and the family? And in what way does that forbid same-sex marriages?

    You can not interpret something that is not mentioned!
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    It is once again variable between different individuals to come to a conclusion as to what they feel is "above" any other forms of relationship.
    Thats the problem, it isnt. What happens when every different state in the US has a different idea of civil union? What does that say about commitment? What guarantees does that give a young child?

    You regard marriage in the church as "above" any other as a matter of personal preference.
    You dont regard the institution of marriage as anything but religious. Thats another problem. Marriage is largely universal, irrespective of religion.

    Precisely, which is why the load of brainwashing christistians marching in protest and being violent in Spain was disturbing
    Because they have a right to recognise as they choose?

    Again, another reference to Christianity that is irrelevant in any response to myself.
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    Really? What makes you come to that conclusion?
    The statistics. That and the fact that there is nothing but legal obligation that prevents you from breaking a contract.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Thats the problem, it isnt. What happens when every different state in the US has a different idea of civil union? What does that say about commitment? What guarantees does that give a young child?
    Does conformity mean the child will view it with greater respect? As a child, i would have respected invidual preferences and ideals regarding commitment.

    I never had you down as a conformist Vienna...


    Because they have a right to recognise as they choose?

    Again, another reference to Christianity that is irrelevant in any response to myself.
    I have been quoted passages from the bible in this thread, and from Spain it revolves around Christianity. It would be foolish to pretend it isn't an issue.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    The statistics. That and the fact that there is nothing but legal obligation that prevents you from breaking a contract.
    Again, this depends on your personal standpoint.
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    I have been quoted passages from the bible in this thread, and from Spain it revolves around Christianity. It would be foolish to pretend it isn't an issue.
    Spain is Christian? :confused: Given their hugely laxed laws on abortion I thought they were secular. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    What has that got to do with marriage and the family? And in what way does that forbid same-sex marriages?

    You can not interpret something that is not mentioned!
    Oh, come on! The quote from Genesis says that man will leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. It doesn't say '...and will cleave to his husband' does it?

    As I predicted - you refuse to acknowledge the point that the Bible does not mention that marriage is for man and man.
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Spain is Christian? :confused: Given their hugely laxed laws on abortion I thought they were secular. :rolleyes:
    Yes, Ndgaarondi, Spain's government is secular.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Oh, come on! The quote from Genesis says that man will leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. It doesn't say '...and will cleave to his husband' does it?
    Correct, so it is wrong to assume that god would forbid it.
 
 
 
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