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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    Precisely. That quote does not even mention the position on same sex marriage, it would therefore be wrong to assume that god opposed it.

    Does god provide a definition of the word "wife"?
    The union of man and woman in marriage is a way of imitating in the flesh the Creator's generosity and fecundity: Therefore (and I reiterate) a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. All human generations proceed from this union.

    Genesis 4:1-2, 25-26, 5:1
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    Please don't quote Genesis or Leviticus if you're not prepared to accept the other rules and practices mentioned, for example:
    Genesis - Incest is fine (starting from two humans gives you a rather small gene pool)
    Leviticus - Buttons are evil, don't wear clothes made of mixed cloths etc.etc.

    If you're going to bring the bible in to this then please at least make it New Testament.
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    Going totally off track:

    the state has no business regulating marriage

    There's my two shillings worth.
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    Going totally off track:

    [b] the state has no business regulating marriage [/i]

    There's my two shillings worth.
    The state organises the financial benefits of marriage and so is inherently involved.
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    (Original post by Speleo)

    If you're going to bring the bible in to this then please at least make it New Testament.
    It's already been done with the New Testament in a different thread.
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    It's already been done with the New Testament in a different thread.
    Thankyou.
    I just really dislike the quoting of Genesis and Leviticus to back up homophobia while leaving the evils of button wearing unchecked.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    The union of man and woman in marriage is a way of imitating in the flesh the Creator's generosity and fecundity: Therefore (and I reiterate) a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. All human generations proceed from this union.

    Genesis 4:1-2, 25-26, 5:1
    No-one is saying that a gay couple is able to have children alone, so I don't quite understand how that is relevant...
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    How so? If the purpose of marriage is a family, then how can a barren heterosexual couple be more of a family than a homosexual couple?
    A barren heterosexual couple doesnt challenge the principle of marriage. Legalising same sex marriage does.

    Our children? lol ... :rolleyes: come vienna... people always roll out "the kids the kids" in order to justify illiberal attitudes.
    Its the most important consideration.
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    (Original post by beekeeper_)
    Does conformity mean the child will view it with greater respect? As a child, i would have respected invidual preferences and ideals regarding commitment.
    Its about a strong, clear consistent message of commitment, not shopping around for the best legal arragement. Studies show which environment a child grows up best in.

    I have been quoted passages from the bible in this thread, and from Spain it revolves around Christianity. It would be foolish to pretend it isn't an issue.
    I havent quoted you anything. I havent raised arguments that pertain to religion, thus my arguments require a response that does not write off opposing views as homophobic religion, when there is nothing to suggest so.
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    (Original post by Speleo)
    The state organises the financial benefits of marriage and so is inherently involved.
    I said it has no business doing so, I didn't say that it did not. The state has no business murdering its own citizens, but it has done.

    There should be no financial benefits of marriage. Ownership of property can be combined by contract without state involvement.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Its about a strong, clear consistent message of commitment, not shopping around for the best legal arragement. Studies show which environment a child grows up best in.
    Which environment would that be? And which studies exactly were you thinking of?
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    Hmmmm

    *gatecrashes thread*

    I didn't realise Spain had made this move til I read this I think that's really good!

    I do think that the church can be quite homophobic, really. Even though it portrays itself as not being so.

    BTW I'm not intending to disrespect anyones religion or beliefs here, I'm actually a Catholic myself but that doesn't make me agree with everything the Church says, infact quite the opposite :p:

    I suppose all religions should have rules, cos if they didn't, they wouldn't really be religions...so in that sense I can kind of understand why the church doesn't allow gay marriage, BUT...I think that the whole "homosexuality is a sin" attitude and even more so the "we should pray for homosexuals to be saved" attitude are extremely patronising. Saved from WHAT, exactly?! I thought God gave everyone free will, and that we were to 'love one another as I have loved you' meaning love everyone...no matter who they are/what they do etc...?? If they're not going to legalise same sex marriages imo they should still treat homosexuals in the same regard as anyone else. It's kind of hypocritical to ignore possibly the most important commandment of all yet be a really devoted Christian isn't it?!

    Anyway, good for Spain I say

    *end of confusing post*

    Hope I didn't offend anyone btw :confused:
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    (Original post by skevvybritt)
    Which environment would that be? And which studies exactly were you thinking of?
    A family environment with a committed father and mother. Marriage represents this commitment and stability that cannot be recreated on a piece of civil union legality.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    A family environment with a committed father and mother. Marriage represents this commitment and stability that cannot be recreated on a piece of civil union legality.
    And the evidence that a father and a mother can do a better job than two mothers, or two fathers, if you'd be so kind?
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    A family environment with a committed father and mother. Marriage represents this commitment and stability that cannot be recreated on a piece of civil union legality.
    :confused: Oooh...?

    I'm confused now.....surely same sex couples could be just as commited to caring for a child they'd adopted/whatever as a nuclear family?

    Doesn't mean they'd love the kids any less?

    Perhaps not an 'ideal' situation but who really defines what is ideal? There are unhappy children in families with a mother and father just as there would be in same sex marriages?
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    A barren heterosexual couple doesnt challenge the principle of marriage. Legalising same sex marriage does.
    So the argument against challenging the common conception of marriage is that it challenges the common conception of marriage?


    (Original post by Vienna)
    Its the most important consideration.
    a) its a gross assumption that there will be harm to children
    b) Why are children the more important than other human beings
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    A family environment with a committed father and mother. Marriage represents this commitment and stability that cannot be recreated on a piece of civil union legality.
    Not really the point though. Its something of a Nirvana fallacy.

    How exactly does allowing men to marry men mean that there will be less heterosexual couples to bring up children with love and care?

    In fact - allowing gay marriage promotes commitment, love and monogamy.
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    (Original post by shortysally)
    I suppose all religions should have rules, cos if they didn't, they wouldn't really be religions...so in that sense I can kind of understand why the church doesn't allow gay marriage, BUT...I think that the whole "homosexuality is a sin" attitude and even more so the "we should pray for homosexuals to be saved" attitude are extremely patronising. Saved from WHAT, exactly?! I thought God gave everyone free will, and that we were to 'love one another as I have loved you' meaning love everyone...no matter who they are/what they do etc...?? If they're not going to legalise same sex marriages imo they should still treat homosexuals in the same regard as anyone else. It's kind of hypocritical to ignore possibly the most important commandment of all yet be a really devoted Christian isn't it?!)
    Bit of a moral cop out isn't it?

    I'm quite sure your Bible says that God hates people who have sex with those of their same sex. So I'd imagine you're praying for homosexuals to be spared the firey pits of Hell for eternity. I suppose you're supposed to love everyone, but hate what they do. Which I suppose means being able to embrace them if they stop sinning and repent for it.

    Personally speaking, I think the Catholic church is a joke these days. No one seems to believe any of it - so I don't really see what the point is.
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    (Original post by LibertineNorth)
    Bit of a moral cop out isn't it?

    I'm quite sure your Bible says that God hates people who have sex with those of their same sex. So I'd imagine you're praying for homosexuals to be spared the firey pits of Hell for eternity. I suppose you're supposed to love everyone, but hate what they do. Which I suppose means being able to embrace them if they stop sinning and repent for it.

    Personally speaking, I think the Catholic church is a joke these days. No one seems to believe any of it - so I don't really see what the point is.
    I often find myself thinking the same thing.....

    In some ways the Church is kind of a walking contradiction. With taking some of its more new and "liberal" views it is contradicting the Bible...however the Bible contradicts itself in several places....and opposing some of the things that it says to in the Bible is contradicting some of the ten commandments...and etc...

    I think it's all been taken so far out of context :confused:

    Fascinating and interesting but, even though I believe there is a God...I don't think I truly could follow any one religion fully anymore, it's just so....weird, for want of a better word!
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Not really the point though.
    Its entirely the point. Why else is marriage universally desired?

    How exactly does allowing men to marry men mean that there will be less heterosexual couples to bring up children with love and care?
    .
    It means that marriage is redefined and undermined as a legal instrument or agreement undistinguishable from a civil union. Many people on this forum are unable to draw the difference.
 
 
 
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