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    (Original post by Speleo)
    Thankyou.
    I just really dislike the quoting of Genesis and Leviticus to back up homophobia while leaving the evils of button wearing unchecked.
    I've yet to see Judges 4:21 quoted for penal policy.
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    (Original post by skevvybritt)
    And the evidence that a father and a mother can do a better job than two mothers, or two fathers, if you'd be so kind?
    Vienna? Can you answer this or do I have to assume that your argument is based on opinions and speculation, rather than the evidence you suggest?
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    marriage isnt a christian term - you can be married in a secular service, in a humanitarian service (in Scotland).... religion need have nothing to do with heterosexual marriage.
    Quite. And I don't see why any right minded person would object to secular gay marriage. I certainly don't have a problem with it.
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    (Original post by skevvybritt)
    Vienna? Can you answer this or do I have to assume that your argument is based on opinions and speculation, rather than the evidence you suggest?
    I don't think there is much evidence. Same sex parents are rarer than rocking horse **** so how can we compile much in the way of empirical evidence?
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    (Original post by Howard)
    I don't think there is much evidence. Same sex parents are rarer than rocking horse **** so how can we compile much in the way of empirical evidence?
    In that case, he shouldn't post making claims that there is evidence, as he did here:

    (Original post by Vienna)
    Its about a strong, clear consistent message of commitment, not shopping around for the best legal arragement. Studies show which environment a child grows up best in.
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    (Original post by skevvybritt)
    In that case, he shouldn't post making claims that there is evidence, as he did here:
    "She"

    Do you back every statement you ever make with evidence. Conversations with you must be rather long winded events.

    The studies available tend to show that children do better with two parents than one. That's an indisputable fact.

    Whether those two parents do better if they are one of each sex or both the same sex I don't think we have the evidence for the reasons I mentioned above. However, common sense leads me to believe that two parents of different sex would be better. Masculine and feminine role models in the home are good for kids. Common sense.

    Nothing wrong with making a statement based on common sense IMO.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Do you back every statement you ever make with evidence. Conversations with you must be rather long winded events.
    In a formal debate? I could if asked to, and if I couldn't I'd retract the claim.

    (Original post by Howard)
    The studies available tend to show that children do better with two parents than one. That's an indisputable fact.
    And I'm not disputing it. However, in a debate about gay marriage I can't se how that's relevant.

    (Original post by Howard)
    Whether those two parents do better if they are one of each sex or both the same sex I don't think we have the evidence for the reasons I mentioned above. However, common sense leads me to believe that two parents of different sex would be better. Masculine and feminine role models in the home are good for kids. Common sense.
    But it's not common sense... I can't see how the lack of a parent of one sex would lead to any type of instability, in fact I can post a link proving that it doesn't. With statistics.
    Here.
    And here.
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    (Original post by skevvybritt)
    But it's not common sense... I can't see how the lack of a parent of one sex would lead to any type of instability, in fact I can post a link proving that it doesn't. With statistics.
    Fair dinkum. It goes to show that what we sometimes think of as being common sense in fact isn't always borne out in reality.

    I still don't think that society has anywhere near enough experience with this to draw any real conclusions though. I mean, how common is it? I don't know any "gay parents" at all; nor do I know anybody raised in this sort of environment.

    I'd like to say that time, experience, and greater knowledge will reveal the truth (actually it only will if it's "good news" since if the truth shows that kids do appalling badly with homosexual parents the PC juggernaut will make damn sure that information isn't brought to light anyway)
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    Canada legalised it before Spain.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    I'd like to say that time, experience, and greater knowledge will reveal the truth (actually it only will if it's "good news" since if the truth shows that kids do appalling badly with homosexual parents the PC juggernaut will make damn sure that information isn't brought to light anyway)
    Wow... you agreed with me *is shocked*

    I'd say the right-wing Christian racket would make damn sure that the information WAS brought to light actually, but there you go...
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    So if the purpose of marriage ISNT a family - which you seemed to be saying - what is it?
    Its neither of the options you provided.

    Im confused now. Why cant it be? Because they cant have kids? So as said, barren couples would be destroying the common conception of marriage as for the purpose of procreation?
    "Barren" couples would get married within the scope of the law. A law that reflects a moral understanding that marriage specifically discriminates in favour of the family. Changing the definition of marriage and removing that discrimination, removes the very reason why marriage is a foundation for our society.
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    (Original post by skevvybritt)
    And I'm not disputing it. However, in a debate about gay marriage I can't se how that's relevant.
    Children do better with two parents than one, you dont dispute that. What is thus more likely to offer proof of that stability and commitment, a marriage or a legal arrangement with clauses?
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    a marriage or a legal arrangement with clauses?
    Surely they're the same thing?
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    (Original post by frost105)
    Surely they're the same thing?
    This kind of question demonstrates just why divorce rates are going through the roof.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Children do better with two parents than one, you dont dispute that. What is thus more likely to offer proof of that stability and commitment, a marriage or a legal arrangement with clauses?
    A marriage... which is why gay people should be allowed to marry instead of this 'civil union' rubbish.

    Are you going to post some evidence for me?
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    (Original post by skevvybritt)
    A marriage... which is why gay people should be allowed to marry instead of this 'civil union' rubbish.
    Why do we need evidence when youve just agreed with me?
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Why do we need evidence when youve just agreed with me?
    Evidence for same sex marriages... which was implied, and I have asked for twice now.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Children do better with two parents than one, you dont dispute that. What is thus more likely to offer proof of that stability and commitment, a marriage or a legal arrangement with clauses?
    Decent parents who can actually bring up children rather than rut and drag them up irrespective of whether they are together by means of a marriage or a legal arrangement if anything. But if having two parents is such an issue, why has the issue of single parents been muted since being raised earlier on?
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    (Original post by skevvybritt)
    Evidence for same sex marriages... which was implied, and I have asked for twice now.
    Evidence for same sex marriage? That they exist, what?
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Decent parents who can actually bring up children rather than rut and drag them up irrespective of whether they are together by means of a marriage or a legal arrangement if anything. But if having two parents is such an issue, why has the issue of single parents been muted since being raised earlier on?
    I was unaware it had been muted. I oppose the reduction of marriage to a legal basis precisely because divorce rates and single parent numbers are skyrocketing. Its my belief that this is because the value and message of marriage has been undermined. A civil union and legal arrangement alone is not the basis for a strong family or community.
 
 
 
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