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    (Original post by Blur303)
    No but there is a link between deprivation and crime. More redistribution of wealth would go some way to solve crime caused because of this deprivation.

    So to stop crime we should give them money? In that case should someone give money to a school bully to prevent being attacked?
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    So to stop crime we should give them money? In that case should someone give money to a school bully to prevent being attacked?
    What an absurd argument. I am not talking about giving criminals the money directly you moron, I am talking about increasing living standards, improving education provision in those areas etc. Prison does not work, most come out and reoffend again and again and again. Investment in improving areas of social deprivation will in the long run save far more of your precious tax bills.
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    What an absurd argument.

    Person A loses, but agrees because they dont want to be the victim of crime, person B gains money and does not commit crime. Its the same logic.




    I am not talking about giving criminals the money directly you moron,
    Well your party is

    I am talking about increasing living standards, improving education provision in those areas etc.
    It dosent matter how your present the money to them, they are still benefitng from it.

    Prison does not work, most come out and reoffend again and again and again.
    Prison does work. It protects the law abiding from the thugs. Yes a majority do reoffend, in fact its beleived that 50% of all crimes in the UK are committed by 100,000 repeat offenders. The solution? Permanently lock away those 100,000 and so reduce crime by 50%.
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    Ideally we need to give the crazy frog an ASBO.
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    [QUOTE=objectivism]


    It dosent matter how your present the money to them, they are still benefitng from it.



    QUOTE]

    And so is the average person. If we help a group of prisoners/young offenders by for example sending them on an education course some of them will use this qualification to find employment instead of resorting to crime. Some people are born into very poor families, sometimes crime is the only option. Society has a moral duty to help these people, even if it means spending some of your precious tax money. Indefinitely locking every prisoner up as you suggest, is going to cost more than helping the prisoners/young offenders helping themselves out of crime. Surely you can see this?
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    And so is the average person. If we help a group of prisoners/young offenders by for example sending them on an education course some of them will use this qualification to find employment instead of resorting to crime. Some people are born into very poor families, sometimes crime is the only option.
    NO! This is wrong. We do not live in the Sudan, if people are so poor that they need to steal for food there is always charities ,the church etc. People know the difference between right and wrong.

    Society has a moral duty to help these people, even if it means spending some of your precious tax money. Indefinitely locking every prisoner up as you suggest, is going to cost more than helping the prisoners/young offenders helping themselves out of crime. Surely you can see this?
    No it won't, they'd be put to work in the prisoners or in the community as in the USA. Thus their labour is free, they pay for their place i prison and hopefully make a profit for the taxpayer.
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    NO! This is wrong. We do not live in the Sudan, if people are so poor that they need to steal for food there is always charities ,the church etc. People know the difference between right and wrong.
    You clearly just have no experience of this. I have, and let me tell you that there are places in the UK where there are families that cannot afford to feed themselves. And some of these kids DON'T know the difference between right and wrong. They've had bad parenting and may not have even attended school. If we can help this areas we can help them dig themselves out of a rut and play a positive role in society instead of being what you most despise. A drain on the taxpayer. And surely you're not advocating charities now are you? Aren't these people just trying to feed their own egos?

    (Original post by objectivism)
    No it won't, they'd be put to work in the prisoners or in the community as in the USA. Thus their labour is free, they pay for their place i prison and hopefully make a profit for the taxpayer.
    Why should everything be about profit? If we help these people with education the chances are they will not reoffend. If we don't they will get out and reoffend, study after study has shown this.
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    You clearly just have no experience of this. I have, and let me tell you that there are places in the UK where there are families that cannot afford to feed themselves.
    I find that very hard to believe and if that is ture it just supports my view tat welfare does not work. After decades and billions of pounds you argue people are STILL going hungry? Hardly an endorsement for the welfare state, is it?

    And some of these kids DON'T know the difference between right and wrong. They've had bad parenting and may not have even attended school. If we can help this areas we can help them dig themselves out of a rut and play a positive role in society instead of being what you most despise. A drain on the taxpayer.
    In the right prison they would not be a drain. Also some people are just bad, some can't be changed, for some it costs too much and its cheaper to just lock them away. Why should we care about them if they don't care about themselves? Why must they suffer because supposedly they don't know whats right and wrong. Also this idea that they don't know the difference is naive, you think you know how these people think, but you don't, you think your 'street-wise', but your not. These 6 years old know its wrong to steal, but they do it. Thats why for example when they steal they hide what they have stolen. You are naive. You are out of touch with reality.

    And surely you're not advocating charities now are you? Aren't these people just trying to feed their own egos?
    Of course i am. You still don't understand me. I was opposing the notion that people do things because they genunley care, they don;t they do it to feed their ego's and their is nothing wrong with this, after all rational selfihsness
    is good. I never said it wasn't in fact i have said in past posts that greed is good. I wish you could keep up


    Why should everything be about profit? If we help these people with education the chances are they will not reoffend. If we don't they will get out and reoffend, study after study has shown this.
    So don't let them out as i have said. Profit? Its about paying back for their crimes against us all.
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    So don't let them out as i have said. Profit? Its about paying back for their crimes against us all.
    So all criminals should spend their lives in prison? Even Michael Howard doesn't believe that :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Rose64)
    So all criminals should spend their lives in prison? Even Michael Howard doesn't believe that :rolleyes:
    I said repeat offenders - 50% of crimes are commiteed by 100,000 repeat offenders.
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    I said repeat offenders - 50% of crimes are commiteed by 100,000 repeat offenders.
    So, repeat offenders should spend their lives in prison? Repeat offenders were, obviously, originally one-time offenders who went to prison for a crime. When they get out, they may re-offend, so why not just lock up all criminals for life? :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Rose64)
    So, repeat offenders should spend their lives in prison? Repeat offenders were, obviously, originally one-time offenders who went to prison for a crime. When they get out, they may re-offend, so why not just lock up all criminals for life? :rolleyes:
    Because it would cost too much. If they commit more than X amount of crimes, they loose their liberty forever. Also an effective deterrent in my opinion.
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    You really should shut up, after all under this complete prison scheme of yours I fear that conservative party membership will reduce drastically. I fear that many crooks unfortunately carry the tory torch. I know no-one understands you, haven't you got the message yet? It's because your views are absurd. And I'm sorry mr. shadow chief secretary I think that a person who believes that there is no UK poverty where in 2002 17% of people in the UK live below the poverty line is truly out of touch with reality.

    (Original post by objectivism)
    I wish you could keep up .
    I wish you would think.
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    Because it would cost too much. If they commit more than X amount of crimes, they loose their liberty forever. Also an effective deterrent in my opinion.
    Strange we have more people in prison than ever before, and yet crime persists. Effective deterrent we've got there.
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    Because it would cost too much. If they commit more than X amount of crimes, they loose their liberty forever. Also an effective deterrent in my opinion.
    Prison isn't a deterrent. If it was, why would people still commit crimes? Or more specifically if they fear "losing their liberty forever", murder?
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    You really should shut up,
    You should think for once in your life.


    after all under this complete prison scheme of yours I fear that conservative party membership will reduce drastically.
    Well there not going to go to labour after all your a member and you want the taxpayer to buy everyone curtains!!




    I know no-one understands you, haven't you got the message yet? It's because your views are absurd.
    Its called being radical. What do you call tax funded curtains? I suppose thats perfectly rational. :rolleyes:

    And I'm sorry mr. shadow chief secretary I think that a person who believes that there is no UK poverty where in 2002 17% of people in the UK live below the poverty line is truly out of touch with reality.
    The pverty line is pseudo scientific. It may have been useful in its day of Booth and Rowntree, but no more. For example Rowtree the inventor of the nutritional pov line said poverty had been abolsihed in the 1950s and now its 17%!! The poverty line is whatever you want it to be - is it not having enough food (Rowntree) or not being able to go on the average amount of holdays as most others (Townsend). Why arn't you informed?


    I think your just jealous because you don;t have the abilty to think beyond conventions, its not my fault your bitter with the hand you got dealt with. Instead of wanting to drag all down to your level, why don;t you aspire to join people are have done something with their lives?
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    I think your just jealous because you don;t have the abilty to think beyond conventions, its not my fault your bitter with the hand you got dealt with. Instead of wanting to drag all down to your level, why don;t you aspire to join people are have done something with their lives?
    Instead of trading insults, perhaps you should consider why some people haven't "done something" with their lives? Maybe their circumstances prevent them being able to achieve certain goals, and I doubt this would improve under your lock-all-criminals-up-for-life scheme.
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    (Original post by Rose64)
    Prison isn't a deterrent. If it was, why would people still commit crimes? Or more specifically if they fear "losing their liberty forever", murder?
    Most murders are commited when drunk, on drugs, metally ill, etc. Thus in an irrational state. Muggings are not, most are conscious acts.

    People commit crimes because they don't fear prison. It must be tougher.
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    Instead of trading insults, perhaps you should consider why some people haven't "done something" with their lives? Maybe their circumstances prevent them being able to achieve certain goals,
    Excuses, excuses... People should just take responsibilty for their actions. They know whats right and whats wrong. We live in an excuse culture e.g 'its not my fault, i didn't have a father', 'i was poor', etc. Tell that to those who have made something of their lives, the millions of upwardly mobile peope.


    and I doubt this would improve under your lock-all-criminals-up-for-life scheme.

    Why don't you pay attention? REPEAT criminals
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    You should think for once in your life.




    Well there not going to go to labour after all your a member and you want the taxpayer to buy everyone curtains!!






    Its called being radical. What do you call tax funded curtains? I suppose thats perfectly rational. :rolleyes:



    The pverty line is pseudo scientific. It may have been useful in its day of Booth and Rowntree, but no more. For example Rowtree the inventor of the nutritional pov line said poverty had been abolsihed in the 1950s and now its 17%!! The poverty line is whatever you want it to be - is it not having enough food (Rowntree) or not being able to go on the average amount of holdays as most others (Townsend). Why arn't you informed?


    I think your just jealous because you don;t have the abilty to think beyond conventions, its not my fault your bitter with the hand you got dealt with. Instead of wanting to drag all down to your level, why don;t you aspire to join people are have done something with their lives?
    If being radical means having a society where it's everyman for himself, where capitalism reigns supreme and where people cannot benefit from taxation then I'm happy conforming. I'm not remotely bitter with any "hand I got dealth with" and consider myslef lucky to born in a country such as this. You're not informed, the poverty line is still an indicator of poverty. Just because you dismiss it does not diminish its worth, if there was no poverty there would be no need for any taxes to go to help those in need. At the moment this is the case, this alone shows poverty still exists. Just because you have not had to experience it does not mean it does not occur. And if you honestly believe I advocate free curtain distrubution you must be more deluded than I thought. "You should think for once in your life"- if it means thinking in your blinkered view I'd rather pass. Just because others don't agree with you doesn't mean they are not thinking, they just don't agree with you. Personally I think you're the ghost of Denis Thatcher. What is it that you do with your life again? Oh yeah, sit down and try and peddle your weird views. And when they don't agree claim they're stupid, ill informed or just plain wrong. Well yeah, damn if only I had your life. I must try harder in future.
 
 
 
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