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are you ever ashamed to be European or of European descent? watch

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    According to some people over here we should be proud of what our ancestors did because it benefited the 3rd world...I have never heard such moronic arguements anywhere, not even other forums.
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    (Original post by Alexdel)
    According to some people over here we should be proud of what our ancestors did because it benefited the 3rd world...I have never heard such moronic arguements anywhere, not even other forums.
    In some ways I'd say we did, but in the general sense I would hardly say we did them a favour.
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    (Original post by Alexdel)
    According to some people over here we should be proud of what our ancestors did because it benefited the 3rd world...I have never heard such moronic arguements anywhere, not even other forums.
    Well.. it did. And does. To an extent.
    Go and learn some history and please don't overuse words like moronic. It's rude.
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    (Original post by TheVlad)
    Well.. it did. And does. To an extent.
    Go and learn some history and please don't overuse words like moronic. It's rude.
    If you find it rude then I'll stop...

    yes...I will...seriously :rolleyes:

    As for learning history...which book did you exactly learn it from? The Thatcher edition? Or the great encyclopedia as written by Winston Churchill? Or even the 'beginner's guide to history from a victorian perspective'?
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    Just a glimpse at some of the great things the Europeans have acheived shows that there is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of, on the contrary, our heritage and acheivements should be a great source of pride.
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    (Original post by TheVlad)
    Well.. it did. And does. To an extent.
    Go and learn some history and please don't overuse words like moronic. It's rude.
    As I said before, I think one has to be very careful about the moral position one takes on colonialism. As with every "bad deed", there are some benefits, but I don't think we are in a position to be claiming the moral high ground here.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    Just a glimpse at some of the great things the Europeans have acheived shows that there is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of, on the contrary, our heritage and acheivements should be a great source of pride.
    Two extremes perhaps. Every nation will have things they are ashamed of. It is incorrect to say we have nothing to be ashamed of.
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    (Original post by Chiron)
    As I said before, I think one has to be very careful about the moral position one takes on colonialism. As with every "bad deed", there are some benefits, but I don't think we are in a position to be claiming the moral high ground here.
    I dont think there is any reason to put it in moral terms. What our ancestors did was what they thought best for them and their people. We are the product of their decisions and values. I find it disrespectful to not acknowledge the contribution they made or seek to judge them based on our contemporary moral understanding.
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    (Original post by Chiron)
    Two extremes perhaps. Every nation will have things they are ashamed of. It is incorrect to say we have nothing to be ashamed of.
    We are a product of those "things". I dont think we should be ashamed of ourselves for things that ultimately shaped contemporary values and attitudes.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    I dont think there is any reason to put it in moral terms. What our ancestors did was what they thought best for them and their people. We are the product of their decisions and values. I find it disrespectful to not acknowledge the contribution they made or seek to judge them based on our contemporary moral understanding.
    Morals are morals Vienna, regardless of our "contemporary understanding". It is moral issue and it's all too easy for those who turn a blind eye to the cost of our national success, to ignore this. Let's not romanticise it. Colonilaism is indeed beneficial to some, but its repurcussions are ugly for others and its motives hard to justify other than by might. I acknowledge that exploring the Americas was a great achievement, but I will simply not pretend that the genocide of Native Americans was not immoral.
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    Of course it would be interesting to see what we would think had we been the victim. Im sure we would have agreed that our hypothetical invaders did it coz they thought it was right, therefore there is no moral blameworthiness.

    Come to think of it we wouldnt even be here discussing it, we would be to busy trying to find a job and put food in the table.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    We are a product of those "things". I dont think we should be ashamed of ourselves for things that ultimately shaped contemporary values and attitudes.
    Thats a terribly flimsy argument. Modern Germany is a product of the past but that doesn't mean there is no shame in the things they did to their own population as well as Europe during the second world war. I deliberately use an emotive example to show you that "because it happened", we are not exempt from moral reflection.
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    Im not ashamed, because african people are human, the same as me, and so are europeans and any other type, they are all human, so its like being ashamed of the english civil war.
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    (Original post by Chiron)
    Morals are morals Vienna, regardless of our "contemporary understanding". It is moral issue and it's all too easy for those who turn a blind eye to the ost of our national success, to ignore this. Let's not romanticise it. Colonilaism is indeed beneficial to some, but its repurcussions are ugly and its motives hard to justify other than by might. I acknowledge that exploring the Americas was a great achievement, but I will simply not pretend that the genocide of Native Americans was not immoral.
    How you view the world and history is through your own moral perspective, I dont share that and the early explorers and colonials certainly didnt. To condemn them, and thus condemn the world they have helped shape, as such, is not really of any value to us.
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    (Original post by Chiron)
    Thats a terribly flimsy argument. Modern Germany is a product of the past but that doesn't mean there is no shame in the things they did to their own population as well as Europe during the second world war. I deliberately use an emotive example to show you that "because it happened", we are not exempt from moral reflection.
    If I was German, I would no doubt regret very much what the Nazi's did, but since German and European society derives a great deal from the terror of the Nazi regime and the armed conflict that pursued, I would find it difficult to feel ashamed of my nationality, my people and the society we now live in.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    I dont think there is any reason to put it in moral terms. What our ancestors did was what they thought best for them and their people. We are the product of their decisions and values. I find it disrespectful to not acknowledge the contribution they made or seek to judge them based on our contemporary moral understanding.
    So we can praise them for the "good" they did but not condemn them for their "bad"?
    Ed: Pah, I always get left behind
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    How you view the world and history is through your own moral perspective, I dont share that and that early explorers and colonials certainly didnt. To condemn them, and thus condemn the world they have helped shape, as such, is not really of any value to us.
    We don't condemn them, we reflect on their deeds. Historical events while a product of their time, cannot be exempt from moral reflection. The fact that human nature has always been the same, human fears and desires have always been the same since the coneption of our human race, the fact that the human psyche is more or less unchanged through the ages. Those facts are proof to me that certain things are simply always wrong. A mother who's child is murdered, a person who is facing starvation will fell and react the same way in the 16th century, in africa, in asia, in europe, as they would today. This to me suggests that the object of morality - to refrain from causing harm - is always meaningful regardless of historical values and context.
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    (Original post by Alewhey)
    So we can praise them for the "good" they did but not condemn them for their "bad"?
    We can accept and be proud of their acheivements, we can reflect on the things we consider to have been unfortunate or regrettable. Both helped determine the society we live in, so I dont feel the necessity to be ashamed of who I am or where I came from.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    If I was German, I would no doubt regret very much what the Nazi's did, but since German and European society derives a great deal from the terror of the Nazi regime and the armed conflict that pursued, I would find it difficult to feel ashamed of my nationality, my people and the society we now live in.
    To not feel shame or at least regret for evil deeds (as opposed necessarily to the people who commit them), is simply beyond human compassion. What did we derive from those conflicts vienna? 60 Million dead? What an achievement.
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    (Original post by Vienna)
    We can accept and be proud of their acheivements, we can reflect on the things we consider to have been unfortunate or regrettable. Both helped determine the society we live in, so I dont feel the necessity to be ashamed of who I am or where I came from.
    There seems a slight change in the tone of your argument. At first you seem to demonstrate absolutely no remorse for some of the evil of our ancestors, now its about "not feeling ashamed of where you come from". A shift of emphasis? I personally never ecnouraged or believed in feeling ashmed about your nationality for things that have nothing to do with you. I have no physical relation nor moral responsibility for the deeds of my ancestors, but I have the human compassion to regret some of their deeds not in my capacity as a british man, but simply as a human being.
 
 
 

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