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Can I get into actuarial profession with a Music degree...

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Reply 80
JohnnySPal
Excellent choice, they look amazing. I applied to them but didn't get an invite to the assessment centre for reasons I shall never know. Thatw as the one time I was really rather gutted for more than two minutes after receiving the rejection.

I like to think it was because I only managed to apply really very late in the day (hasn't their deadline passed already for September 2010 intake?), but in reality they probably simply thought I was **** :p:


Well if Mr. First Class didn't get a job then I won't hold my breath! :p: I saw you recommend them somewhere else on this site once - what is it that especially draws you to them? I think the deadline for September 2010 has indeed passed - but I'm applying for the internship. I wasn't sure which to go for but I figured that they're more likely to take a short-term "risk" (with a non-maths grad) than a long-term one. Who knows if this is true.

Dude they wouldn't throw you into that kind of decision-making straight away. You'd probably initially shadow someone more senior, and you'd be getting smaller bits of work to complete from the outputs of various meetings you attend with clients (assuming it's that kind of consulting, anyways).

You seem to have roughly the right idea in your head, just brainstorm a bit as to the difference between consultancy and non-consultancy.

With consulting you'll need to be more fluid and dynamic and you'll be able to work on many diverse pieces of work that will demand completely things of you from one day to the next. With that though comes the added stress (perhaps with the expectation to do the extra hours required if a deadline is looming).

In P/L you're more likely to have an office job and as such be part of the office culture, which will give you more of a routine and will arguably have (slightly) fewer pressures, but will allow you to use more of the technical skills that you'll pick up from your studies. Also means you'll not be customer facing (except perhaps internal customers such as other departments).

I'm fairly sure the website will give details of the differences. I seem to recall them pointing you to a specific part of their website for that question.


But they ask me to put a preference out of the three areas and why I have chosen it - why do you think this is? So you think it won't matter to say "No preference"? Also, when you say I need to know about the difference between consultancy and non-consultancy, this is just to say why I've chosen consultancy right? Since LCP is a consulting firm an' all. Unless I've missed something.

Is it very difficult to switch specialisms at certain stages in your career? I know it's not impossible but it's hard to get an idea of how easy or not it is. It's just that consultancy definitely appeals to me the most right now, but I imagine that assuming I get into the career, I might at some point as an oldie want to switch to something more office-based and stable.

Haha, whoops. I did write "The Actuary", but then noticed I'd saved the bookmark as "The Actuarial" for some reason, so I changed it. I'll correct the bookmark now to prevent further mistakes :o:

There do seem to be a lot of people who come here going, "I have triple maths at A level and a maths degree, is that enough to become an actuary?" Geez, if they didn't want to check out actuaries.org.uk they could at least do a search on here ...

To be fair, I'm pleased to be able to help someone on here who's clearly done their research and has genuine motivation. My given rep at the moment seems to be a string of negs to people who exclaim "I wanna become actuary help" and clearly know ****-all about the profession. For starters you seem to be one of a very few who can use the words actuary and actuarial correctly in a sentence! I'm kind expecing a couple of negs for saying this, but myeh I'll live :p:


Don't worry, I'm basically planning to rep you every two weeks forever until I die.*

*or forget.
Jelkin
Well if Mr. First Class didn't get a job then I won't hold my breath! :p: I saw you recommend them somewhere else on this site once - what is it that especially draws you to them? I think the deadline for September 2010 has indeed passed - but I'm applying for the internship. I wasn't sure which to go for but I figured that they're more likely to take a short-term "risk" (with a non-maths grad) than a long-term one. Who knows if this is true.

But they ask me to put a preference out of the three areas and why I have chosen it - why do you think this is? So you think it won't matter to say "No preference"? Also, when you say I need to know about the difference between consultancy and non-consultancy, this is just to say why I've chosen consultancy right? Since LCP is a consulting firm an' all. Unless I've missed something.

Is it very difficult to switch specialisms at certain stages in your career? I know it's not impossible but it's hard to get an idea of how easy or not it is. It's just that consultancy definitely appeals to me the most right now, but I imagine that assuming I get into the career, I might at some point as an oldie want to switch to something more office-based and stable.

Haha, whoops. I did write "The Actuary", but then noticed I'd saved the bookmark as "The Actuarial" for some reason, so I changed it. I'll correct the bookmark now to prevent further mistakes :o:

There do seem to be a lot of people who come here going, "I have triple maths at A level and a maths degree, is that enough to become an actuary?" Geez, if they didn't want to check out actuaries.org.uk they could at least do a search on here ...


Getting an internship would definitely inprove prospects of getting a job at the end of it, especially for non-Maths - good luck!

Ahh okay, I see, I figured that being able to pick Insurance Consultancy (or whatever it was) implied that it was more of a consulting role than the other two. Are you sure the third choice wasn't General Insurance? Having P/L/GI would make far more sense :confused: (if indeed it is GI, that's just non-life insurance, e.g. Home/Car/Pet/Travel/etc.)

I think it would help if you picked a specialism. I don't think a big 'no preference' would go down well - if anything I don't think you could explain that choice without sounding like you haven't done your research. I don't have any resources to help distinguish between the various routes you can go down - I think I ended up consulting Wikipedia in the end!

It's definitely possible to swicth from consultancy to office roles. I know a few people at my work who have done it, including my current line manager. Switching between P/L/GI/Investment/other would be harder though given some of the later actuarial exams you need to do require you to specialise. That's 3-4 years down the line at the very least though, and by the time you have all the CTs you'll be in a good position to switch to another specialism if needs be.
Reply 82
JohnnySPal
Ahh okay, I see, I figured that being able to pick Insurance Consultancy (or whatever it was) implied that it was more of a consulting role than the other two. Are you sure the third choice wasn't General Insurance? Having P/L/GI would make far more sense :confused: (if indeed it is GI, that's just non-life insurance, e.g. Home/Car/Pet/Travel/etc.)

I think it would help if you picked a specialism. I don't think a big 'no preference' would go down well - if anything I don't think you could explain that choice without sounding like you haven't done your research. I don't have any resources to help distinguish between the various routes you can go down - I think I ended up consulting Wikipedia in the end!


Sorry, the "Consultancy" bit was at the end of all three titles but I guess listing them like I did may have obscured that. This is copied and pasted from the website:

We currently offer summer internships in the following business areas:
Pensions Actuarial Consulting
Investment Consulting
Insurance Consulting

However, we are keen for you to make the most of your internship so if you are interested in working in our other departments too, we will do our best to give you the opportunity to work on projects in those departments.

Pensions
- our pensions team advises companies and trustees on designing pension schemes, valuing and managing accumulated pension commitments, the impact of new legislation, and the pensions implications of mergers and acquisitions.

Investment
- our investment team helps companies and trustees to manage risk and decide on the best way to manage and invest the assets of their pension funds.

Other main business areas you may wish to get a ‘flavour’ of during your internship are:

General Insurance
- involves giving advice to insurance companies on reserving and financial risk management.

Financial Dynamics
- offers a new dimension in risk appraisal, business modelling and company valuations. For example, valuing points from loyalty schemes and share options, or estimating the size of reserves required today to cover a client's nuclear decommissioning costs.


I think I will pick Investment Consulting, but it's kind of difficult to explain why (especially having had no experience in the profession!).

I know I sound like a broken record, but thanks again - I am SO glad you're on TSR and willing to help :p:
Reply 83
To be honest I would be very suprised if you managed to get on an actuarial programme.

I haven't read this entire thread, as am supposed to be studying for the actuarial exams starting in less than 4 weeks time! But as I am currently an actuarial trainee, I'll share a few thoughts...

There are around 30 actuarial trainees in our company.

Everyone I know has a maths degree / maths & economics degree bar 3 people

Of these 3 people, 2 have Physics degrees and the other one has a natural sciences degree. So all fairly mathsy still.

The majority of actuarial work isn't particularly difficult (from my 7 month experience - I haven't done any modelling yet which might be a bit more technical), it's just a case of being able to deal with large volumes of data and being able to accurately churn through lost of simple calcs like compound interest etc and various policy charges etc..
No doubt if you have an excellent analytical brain and a competency with numbers you would be fine.

So you wonder why actuarial practices don't employers don't employ more graduates outside of the maths type fields.

Well I think it is precisely down to the difficultly of the exams.
I have a 1st class degree from a top 10 university (not oxbridge) and even the earlier exams are fairly tricky.
From my experience, the content in the exams is very different to what you actually do on a day to day basis.
However, unfortunately passing the exams is a requirement of becoming an actuary.
I dread to think how someone would cope that hasn't got a maths or highly numerical degree.

So by all means apply, but if you are unsuccessful I think it will be because employers don't think you'll cope in the actuarial exams.

I hope this has been of some use.
Reply 84
JohnnySPal
I would LOVE to hear how things are going, even though I have a life of my own and you are a stranger on an internet forum


Hello! I just thought I would let you know that although Punter Southall rejected me, I got a call today from a very nice lady at Hewitt (I applied there last Wednesday evening) who wanted to discuss options for assessment centres and interviews due to the fact that I live in Sweden. We agreed that I would take the online tests soon (they will send them tomorrow) and then discuss options for when I could do the assessment centre and interview, since they would be kind enough to squish them into the same day for me so that I didn't have to come back twice :smile: So I'm pleased about that! I guess saying that I'd like to meet Hitler on the application form wasn't as risky as everyone seemed to think :h:

Apparently there are two tests: a numerical one and a problem-solving/aptitude/judgment test.

"The numerical assessment tests the key skill of comfort with numbers at speed - in meetings with our clients you will often need to juggle numbers quickly and accurately. The test consists of a number of scenarios where you need to analyse some data and interpret the numbers quickly. It is a standard test used by employers across the banking and finance industries, with the scoring reflecting the number of scenarios answered correctly in the set time period. It is very unlikely that you will get through all of the questions, but the more you manage to do, the higher your score. The mathematics itself is straightforward, so there's no need to worry if you're a bit rusty on differentiation or integration, etc - you won't need it in the test.

"The second test assesses judgement required for solving problems in work-related situations, putting you in situations that you might encounter at work. No special training, knowledge, or experience is required in order to take this type of test. Your answers should draw on general knowledge and life experience only. Bear in mind that you are not being asked to judge if an option is right or wrong, just to evaluate which is the best (and worst) option available to you from those provided."

I'm a little nervous about them - I'm pretty good at quick thinking and fast mental arithmetic, but I don't know how I'd compare to a load of maths grads! Do you have any experience of this kind of thing?

I'm really glad I didn't get rejected outright :smile: Although I think they judge the first round entirely on the application form, which does not ask for your degree subject ...
Jelkin
BOOBIES :teeth:


They'll probably be the standard tests that many firms put graduates through. They're usually just used as a filter to get rid of (who they deem to rightly or wrongly be) weaker candidates. I'm guessing it costs them to run ACs and interviews so getting rid of people prior to them would save them bogangles o' cash. I usually urinated on them, but then I'm a maths grad I guess :dunno:

There are loads of practice tests available out there for you to try if you're worried about the format. SHL is one company that runs these kinds of test. Practice a test or two here: http://www.shldirect.com/

Hitler on an application, gooooood times :cool:
Jelkin
BOOBIES :teeth:


They'll probably be the standard tests that many firms put graduates through. They're usually just used as a filter to get rid of (who they deem to rightly or wrongly be) weaker candidates. I'm guessing it costs them to run ACs and interviews so getting rid of people prior to them would save them bogangles o' cash.

There are loads of practice tests available out there for you to try if you're worried about the format. SHL is one company that runs these kinds of test. Practice a test or two here: http://www.shldirect.com/

Well done for getting to the AC stage for places, it just goes to prove you can compete for these jobs without numerate degrees. Which is what I've said all along! Hitler on an application, gooooood times :cool:
Reply 87
JohnnySPal
They'll probably be the standard tests that many firms put graduates through. They're usually just used as a filter to get rid of (who they deem to rightly or wrongly be) weaker candidates. I'm guessing it costs them to run ACs and interviews so getting rid of people prior to them would save them bogangles o' cash.

There are loads of practice tests available out there for you to try if you're worried about the format. SHL is one company that runs these kinds of test. Practice a test or two here: http://www.shldirect.com/

Well done for getting to the AC stage for places, it just goes to prove you can compete for these jobs without numerate degrees. Which is what I've said all along! Hitler on an application, gooooood times :cool:


Haha - despite the fact that I always do what you did in that post, I still had to spend some time thinking, "Did I really write that?"

When I applied to Lloyds TSB a year ago I had to do a numeracy and a situational thingy test, and I got through both of those - so hopefully I am competent enough for these as well. Although I can't imagine I'd be better than maths grads, so who knows. Thanks for the link - it turns out these tests are run by SHL too! :biggrin: You are pretty much the most helpful person ever.

I think they selected people to go through the first stage based on the application alone, which didn't ask what degree you'd done. But it does go to show that when they say "any degree discipline" they're not joking! I like the look of Hewitt, actually. The website is attractive and informative, and generally it gives a really good impression.
Reply 88
GilbertLam
I'm on my way from misery to happiness today


Hey, how is the exam prep going? The big day is this month, yes? :smile: I plan to order the study materials for when I get home in June. The exam is in October so I think this will be enough time!
Good luck to any of the dudes sitting exams in this period. I reckon I kicked CT3 into the middle of next week yesterday morning, which is quite a contrast to how I felt about CT1 last September. Good times; so much so I'm on TSR and drinking a nice glass of pinot noir to celebrate :yeah:

As I'm in GI I think I'm gonna study CT6 next, which is (apparently) heavy on GLMs and the lark. I dunno which other module to try though. Any suggestions from fellow student members?
Reply 90
JohnnySPal
Good luck to any of the dudes sitting exams in this period. I reckon I kicked CT3 into the middle of next week yesterday morning, which is quite a contrast to how I felt about CT1 last September. Good times; so much so I'm on TSR and drinking a nice glass of pinot noir to celebrate :yeah:

As I'm in GI I think I'm gonna study CT6 next, which is (apparently) heavy on GLMs and the lark. I dunno which other module to try though. Any suggestions from fellow student members?


Congratulations!

I'm sorry I'm not a fellow actuarial student and therefore cannot help you like you've helped me, but I'm glad things are going well :bhangra: I'm going to do some online tests tomorrow or Sunday (I only just managed to borrow a calculator). Scary! I got rejected from LCP btw - but I wasn't expecting too much anyway.

Hope someone else posts who is more on your level :p:
Jelkin
Congratulations!

I'm sorry I'm not a fellow actuarial student and therefore cannot help you like you've helped me, but I'm glad things are going well :bhangra: I'm going to do some online tests tomorrow or Sunday (I only just managed to borrow a calculator). Scary! I got rejected from LCP btw - but I wasn't expecting too much anyway.

Hope someone else posts who is more on your level :p:


I was doing lots of research (i.e. Went on the website for five minutes :p:) and it would appear that knowledge of CT4 helps with CT6 to some degree. Looks like that's sorted then.

I didn't get to the AC for LCP either. That may or may not be because my application was a half-arsed piece of crap, though. Ahh well, I'd got mahself a job by then so it didn't matter much. Are you applying to grad schemes at the moment? If they don't go too well you'll have to remember to give your details to actuarial recruitment agencies, who should be able to point you towards other jobs you wouldn't otherwise hear about. That's how I got my job and I'm really pleased I didn't end up on a grad scheme actually; the grad schemers in my place of work tend to get lumbered with more mundane tasks :teehee:
Reply 92
JohnnySPal
I was doing lots of research (i.e. Went on the website for five minutes :p:) and it would appear that knowledge of CT4 helps with CT6 to some degree. Looks like that's sorted then.

I didn't get to the AC for LCP either. That may or may not be because my application was a half-arsed piece of crap, though. Ahh well, I'd got mahself a job by then so it didn't matter much. Are you applying to grad schemes at the moment? If they don't go too well you'll have to remember to give your details to actuarial recruitment agencies, who should be able to point you towards other jobs you wouldn't otherwise hear about. That's how I got my job and I'm really pleased I didn't end up on a grad scheme actually; the grad schemers in my place of work tend to get lumbered with more mundane tasks :teehee:


So how do they "train" you? This is something I don't quite get about actuarial students, actually - how you can learn on the job before you've acquired all the requisite technical skills.

The only actuarial job I'm still in the running for (having only applied to three!) is an internship with Hewitt. I'm really interested in it so I'm quite nervous about the tests. Did one of those practice ones from SHL this evening and I did pretty well in the situational judgement test but not so well in the numeracy one (although they're meant to be tough and fast-paced so I'm not sure how I would compare to others!). I'm not quite in the zone though so I think tomorrow morning I will get up some energy and try the real thing. Eek! If/when I get rejected I will try out the recruitment agencies. :smile:

Good news about CT6 - how many exams have you done now and how many do you have left to do? When are you hoping to be qualified? Exciting stuff :woo:
Jelkin
So how do they "train" you? This is something I don't quite get about actuarial students, actually - how you can learn on the job before you've acquired all the requisite technical skills.


I don't really have a firm answer for that. You just have to bear in mind that not every piece of work you'll ever do will be really incredibly complicated and technical. I think the exams supposed to complement a natural analytical ability; having a load of exam passes will just open up a wide range of fancy techniques to apply to tasks.

Jelkin
The only actuarial job I'm still in the running for (having only applied to three!) is an internship with Hewitt. I'm really interested in it so I'm quite nervous about the tests. Did one of those practice ones from SHL this evening and I did pretty well in the situational judgement test but not so well in the numeracy one (although they're meant to be tough and fast-paced so I'm not sure how I would compare to others!). I'm not quite in the zone though so I think tomorrow morning I will get up some energy and try the real thing. Eek! If/when I get rejected I will try out the recruitment agencies. :smile:


You've only applied to three places? Tsk that's not nearly enough! Unless you're ****-hot and have the ideal qualification set you're likely going to need to get to double figures and beyond. Good luck with what you have lined up though, I hope to be proved wrong!

Jelkin
Good news about CT6 - how many exams have you done now and how many do you have left to do? When are you hoping to be qualified? Exciting stuff :woo:


I've done two. I know progress seems really slow, but I couldn't sit the CT1 exam until I'd been in my job for nine months (didn't have time to study the material in three months), and I only got my study contract finalised in February so could only sit one exam this time. Hopefully for the remaining 13 (assuming I pass CT3) it'll be two (or three, if I'm feeling audacious) exams per session from here on in. Scary stuff when you consider I could be at this for another five years!
Reply 94
JohnnySPal
You've only applied to three places? Tsk that's not nearly enough! Unless you're ****-hot and have the ideal qualification set you're likely going to need to get to double figures and beyond. Good luck with what you have lined up though, I hope to be proved wrong!


Ah yes, but for a while I thought I might be staying for the second year of my MA or taking a year out, and I didn't really confirm my desire for the actuarial profession (having previously thought I had no hope in hell) until Februaryish. So a lot of deadlines had already passed ... I then had to select only the firms that did not ask specifically for a maths or quantitative degree. So I didn't have much choice unfortunately! Of course I will apply to many more places next year.

I've done two. I know progress seems really slow, but I couldn't sit the CT1 exam until I'd been in my job for nine months (didn't have time to study the material in three months), and I only got my study contract finalised in February so could only sit one exam this time. Hopefully for the remaining 13 (assuming I pass CT3) it'll be two (or three, if I'm feeling audacious) exams per session from here on in. Scary stuff when you consider I could be at this for another five years!


Okay, so you've done CT1 and CT2? And CT3 is soon? But I thought it sounded like you'd already done CT4, which is why you chose CT6? Confusing :p: Anyway, I'm sure the continual pay rises will be quite the motivator :wink:
Jelkin
Ah yes, but for a while I thought I might be staying for the second year of my MA or taking a year out, and I didn't really confirm my desire for the actuarial profession (having previously thought I had no hope in hell) until Februaryish. So a lot of deadlines had already passed ... I then had to select only the firms that did not ask specifically for a maths or quantitative degree. So I didn't have much choice unfortunately! Of course I will apply to many more places next year.

Okay, so you've done CT1 and CT2? And CT3 is soon? But I thought it sounded like you'd already done CT4, which is why you chose CT6? Confusing :p: Anyway, I'm sure the continual pay rises will be quite the motivator :wink:


I've done CT1 (Financial Maths) and CT3 (Prob and Stat Maths) now. I'm planning on doing CT4 and CT6 in October. I primarily want to do CT6 in October, but apparently it helps if you've done CT4, hence why I'm choosing to do CT4 this time.
I just did CT6, first sitting. I'd say that there aren't any real prereqs apart from a good grounding in prob and stats (I didn't even have CT3 and I destroyed it - although the only reason I didn't have a CT3 exemption was that I was missing maybe 10% of the stats). I wouldn't say CT4 was a prereq. In fact I can hardly see why they would say that - perhaps for that tiny tiny bit on the Markov property which they explain fully anyway? If you want to do CT6, I say go for it.

From what I can see, CT4 and CT5 together makes more sense to do together as there is at least some overlap, hence I plan to do them in September (with CT3).
I'm noticing that a lot of people are keeping quiet about how their CT1 exam went :p:
Reply 98
JohnnySPal
I'm noticing that a lot of people are keeping quiet about how their CT1 exam went :p:


I noticed too :p: She hasn't posted on TSR since February though - I think she was just using us (or you) for career guidance and now we will never hear from her again :emo:

I am a bit worried about these tests Hewitt sent me - I did the numeracy one (which didn't go especially well, but I'm hoping that it would be the same for most people as it's meant to be challenging!), but I can't log onto the situational judgment test and no one has replied to my two emails and when I tried calling today I got an answering machine and no one has responded to my message. And the deadline for the tests is Saturday, and I'm completely busy all day Friday, which means I really need to do it tomorrow. But it's not looking good ... I think I will just have to try calling again tomorrow and demanding that someone help me. Fingers crossed.

I also have an interview with another company (not actuarial though) and I need to let them know when I can attend, but because I live abroad I REALLY need to know if I'll manage to get an interview with Hewitt as if I'm flying over it would be best to have them at close times ...

Sorry to babble, I'm a bit nervous about the whole thing.
GilbertLam
I'm currently on my gap year at the moment and I have thoughts of becoming an actuary when I finish my music degree at KCL. However I'm worried that most employers won't even look at me because I won't have a degree that's vaguely...mathsy. You may be thinking 'then why on earth are you doing a music degree' but my reason is just that I would like to study music at uni more than maths. However it doesn't mean that I don't enjoy maths. If it helps at all, I got an A* in GCSE maths and an A at A-level. Surely my music degree would be of some use because I would have gained experience in essay writing for writing reports etc. But will this be enough to prevent them from overlooking my CV do you think? Do you know of any people with an arts degree that have gone into the financial sector?

Thank you.



I think you definitely stand a chance...If it helps, last November I went to an assessment centre at Hewitt Associates for a actuarial graduate role, and I remember very clearly that one of the trainees that were having lunch with us said they had a colleague who had studied Music at university. So, definitely, some firms do not require a maths-based degree..but there will be others that will (for instance, I think both Deloitte and KPMG require a degree with a maths content, don't know about the other Big Fours).

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