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    (Original post by Iz the Wiz)
    If that's the case, why don't you all just lay your cards on the table and quit posturing about rights and freedoms?

    Why don't you just say, "People are more economic (i.e., useful to us) as nicoderm-patch addicts and Prozac zombies than as smokers, sitting in recirculated-air offices, watching TV instead of going to pubs, etc. And people are only worthy of medical treatment after we've determined that their benefits to society outweigh their costs. Their economic usefulness is what we value, not some old romantic notion about leaving people free to pursue their manner of happiness in their fashion."
    remind me where ive been postering about rights and freedoms please?
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    (Original post by Iz the Wiz)
    Yes.
    free health care doesnt even exist does it?
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    (Original post by kriztinae)
    free health care doesnt even exist does it?
    it doesnt exist in the UK either.

    the notion that anything is free is simply laughable.
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    No, there's no national healthcare in America. But the same arguments are being made by some of the people who want it. And employers, who provide health insurance, are trying to deny it to smokers or fire smokers. It's the same mentality.

    Take 3 nations with very high smoking rates: Italy, Germany, France. Are their healthcare systems bankrupt?
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    (Original post by Iz the Wiz)
    No, there's no national healthcare in America. But the same arguments are being made by people who want free health care. And employers, who provide health insurance, are trying to deny it to smokers or fire smokers. It's the same mentality.

    Take 3 nations with very high smoking rates: Italy, Germany, France. Are their healthcare systems bankrupt?
    whos healthcare system is?
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    (Original post by Iz the Wiz)
    No
    i rest my case

    (Original post by technik)
    it doesnt exist in the UK either.

    the notion that anything is free is simply laughable.
    true but if you are poor you can still obtain it somehow.
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    (Original post by kriztinae)
    i rest my case

    What is your case?
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    (Original post by kriztinae)
    i rest my case


    true but if you are poor you can still obtain it somehow.
    unless you've never paid any tax you arent getting it for free.

    and if you havent ever paid tax you should probably be denied access because you've either never worked, or fiddled the figures.
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    (Original post by technik)
    whos healthcare system is?
    Shouldn't a healthcare system full of smokers be a mess, according to your argument?

    remind me where ive been postering about rights and freedoms please?
    Well, it looks like you haven't, but the anti-smoking movement generally does. "Yawn," who first suggested denying medical treatment to smokers, goes on endlessly about rights & freedoms.
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    (Original post by technik)
    unless you've never paid any tax you arent getting it for free.

    and if you havent ever paid tax you should probably be denied access because you've either never worked, or fiddled the figures.
    fair enough, but i mean it in the case of, even after you pay tax, and cannot afford to pay for health care you can still get it,
    in the states you pay taxes but still dont get "free" health care
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    (Original post by Iz the Wiz)
    Shouldn't a healthcare system full of smokers be a mess, according to your argument?
    i can tell you've never experienced the british NHS...

    (Original post by Iz the Wiz)
    Well, it looks like you haven't
    curious that...
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    (Original post by technik)
    i can tell you've never experienced the british NHS...
    Right, right ... but: If smoking is such a disaster to the British NHS, wouldn't you expect countries with higher incidence of smoking to have healthcare systems which are even more disastrous?
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    (Original post by Iz the Wiz)
    Right, right ... but: If smoking is such a disaster to the British NHS, wouldn't you expect countries with higher incidence of smoking to have healthcare systems which are even more disastrous?
    not necessarily. there are hundreds of other variables. i dont even recall saying smoking was "disastrous" for the NHS. however any initiative that makes smoking less acceptable will lead to less people taking it up, and to more people giving it up sucessfully. that'll only decrease strain on a health service thats been buckling under total pressure for decades.
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    (Original post by kriztinae)

    The end result regarding the NHS is that there may be a refusal to treat people who smoke for any smoking related illness. Now that's a scary propect for any smoker! :eek:

    For posting this, Izthe Wiz calls me a ******* nazi !! That is laughable considering how most members of this forum know my views on many matters.

    I am not the instigator of this policy, just the messenger. Health rationing is happening all over the world now - it is a sad fact of life that health providers are coming to the conclusion that treatment should be restricted to those who are wilfully responsible for their own 'self-inflicted' medical problems.

    I don't agree that this should be the case - but it looks like becoming common practice.
    *bump
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    I'd agree with Beekeeper that it needs to be slowly phased out.

    I don't think it's fair to make pubs and clubs non-smoking. That probably is motivated out of selfishness, but if there is a decent air conditioning and a smoking section then I don't see the problem. They can even have seperate smoking rooms like they used to have in some pubs. I can understand restaurants and workplaces though.
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    I'd agree with Beekeeper that it needs to be slowly phased out.

    I don't think it's fair to make pubs and clubs non-smoking. That probably is motivated out of selfishness, but if there is a decent air conditioning and a smoking section then I don't see the problem. They can even have seperate smoking rooms like they used to have in some pubs. I can understand restaurants and workplaces though.
    The problem with your last sentence Northumbrian, is that for many, the bar is their workplace. What about them?
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    (Original post by yawn)
    The problem with your last sentence Northumbrian, is that for many, the bar is their workplace. What about them?
    its their fault for wanting to work clearly...

    its funny seeing so many people advocating "segregated everything" just to appease people who want to destroy their health. madness.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    *bump
    Let's look at his original post, which he saw fit to edit:

    When I referred to the health of the nation and the benefits to the NHS I was specifically referring to the consequences of smoking on the nation - seeing as this thread is about a smoking ban.

    Many of those admitted to hospital are admitted because of smoking related illnesses - and that has consequences on surgical wards as well as medical wards. Smokers take up a disproportionately large slice of the resources. If the practice of smoking was drastically reduced we would not need the revenue we get from cigarette tax to treat the patients, both smokers and passive smokers, who need treatment.

    The only way to help that situation is to have a total ban on smoking in public places. This will mean that only those who choose to smoke will suffer the effects of their habit because others will not be exposed to their smoke.

    The end result regarding the NHS is that there may be a refusal to treat people who smoke for any smoking related illness. Now that's a scary propect for any smoker!
    It's obvious to me that this is a threat, and intended as such. I responded the way a sensible person responds to that kind of talk. Calling something "inevitable," and then declaring (gloatingly) that one is either on its side or on the losing side, is emblematic of the worst kind of Bolshevism. "Hey, man, heads ARE gonna roll: you can either join the revolution or lose yours when the time comes."

    It should be obvious that if any socialized scheme is to be tolerable, all this bean-counting regarding personal behavior will have to stop. Yawn, you said that the obese only affect themselves: not anymore. If we allow this mentality to go unchecked, the obese will be viewed as theives, picking all our pockets for the medical treatments they disproportionately need. Eventually, societies will be full of snoops and spies: everyone jealously watching what everyone else is eating & drinking in search of the treacherous pork rib or fried wing. Soon, even recreation will be under scrutiny: amateur athletes are too injury-prone to be cost effective, so goodbye to rock-climbing, football, who knows what? This mentality is a recipe for disaster, or at least for a society that's stupifyingly boring and restrictive.

    As I said, if we are to socialize institutions (and I'm generally in favor of it), we have to do it with an agreement that everyone minds their own business. And that should start with a hearty rejection of proposals like the above.
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    (Original post by technik)
    its their fault for wanting to work clearly...

    its funny seeing so many people advocating "segregated everything" just to appease people who want to destroy their health. madness.
    Sorry---allowing bars to function freely is "appeasing" somebody? Oh, thank you for withholding your iron fist!

    As for the choice between your sanity, and the "madness" of people who enjoy something as simply enjoyable as tobacco, I'll quote Mark Twain (who made his point very well):

    "I hate your kind of people. You are always ciphering out how much a man's health is injured, and how much his intellect is impaired, and how many pitiful dollars and cents he wastes in the course of ninety-two years' indulgence in the fatal practice of smoking; and in the equally fatal practice of drinking coffee; and in playing billiards occasionally; and in taking a glass of wine at dinner, etc., etc., etc. . . . You never see but one side of the question. You are blind to the fact that most old men in America smoke and drink coffee, although, according to your theory, they ought to have died young; and that hearty old Englishmen drink wine and survive it, and portly old Dutchmen both drink and smoke freely, and yet grow older and fatter all the time. And you never try to find out how much solid comfort, relaxation and enjoyment a man derives from smoking in the course of a lifetime, (and which is worth ten times the money he would save by letting it alone,) nor the appalling aggregate of happiness lost in a lifetime by your kind of people from NOT smoking."
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    (Original post by yawn)
    The problem with your last sentence Northumbrian, is that for many, the bar is their workplace. What about them?
    So in your world, the state owns all private property and the state decides where and how you will be employed? Are you a communist?
 
 
 

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