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    #1?

    Nah. Maybe #34 in my books.
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    (Original post by Trier)
    erm, you must be joking, right? :rolleyes:
    Name a single attempt to overthrow the US government by someone from within? In case you are thinking of our Civil War, never was there an attempt to overthrow the government, merely to secede from it.

    Regardless, clearly you can see that you are simply choosing your own criteria to suit your own specific ideals and formulating an answer.

    Being the 'best' is wholely subjective and cannot be decisively described in objective terms.
    I think economic and military superiority are pretty objective criteria.

    (Original post by edders)
    What was that little spot of bother 1861-1865 about then?
    Did the South attempt to overthrow the US government? I think not.

    Secession != revolution.
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    (Original post by svidrigailov)
    The country with the highest per capita income in the world is Norway, which has more than a million citizens.
    Your data is old.

    According to this year's Index of Economic Freedom, America is joint twelfth in the world for 'economic freedoms'; Hong Kong is, again, number one. It is the first time that America has failed to be in the top ten.
    Hong Kong is not a country. The index of economic freedom also doesn't take into account government interference in the economy (i.e. Singapore's choosing of "national champions").
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    You know, this is what this forum really needed--a thead that evolves into a critical look at the United States. Upon seeing the myriad threads devoted to looking at the US through rose-tinted glasses, I'm thrilled to see that we finally have some balance. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Name a single attempt to overthrow the US government by someone from within? In case you are thinking of our Civil War, never was there an attempt to overthrow the government, merely to secede from it.
    So the American Revolution wasn't an revolution, it was simply secession from the UK government?

    I don't agree with your demarcation.

    If the US had state apparatus in the South then secession is attacking that apparatus and is a revolution.

    (Original post by Bismarck)
    I think economic and military superiority are pretty objective criteria.
    I think you've missed my point.

    Yes, they are objective criteria- but they are not the supra-standard for determining the 'best'.

    They are your subjective ideas of the criteria that determine the 'best'.


    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Did the South attempt to overthrow the US government? I think not.
    So the South wasn't governed by the US Government?

    Unless that is the case, the attack of part or all of the government is a revolt.
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    (Original post by Trier)
    So the American Revolution wasn't an revolution, it was simply secession from the UK government?
    The American Revolution was arguably a revolution for the US, but not a revolution for Britain. We changed our political system, not yours. A revolution is an attempt to change the socio-economic system.

    Yes, they are objective criteria- but they are not the supra-standard for determining the 'best'.

    They are your subjective ideas of the criteria that determine the 'best'.
    Can you find a more objective way to rank countries than according to their prosperity and power?
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Your data is old.[/URL]
    This I will concede; I used 2004 data.

    Hong Kong is not a country. The index of economic freedom also doesn't take into account government interference in the economy (i.e. [sic] Singapore's choosing of "national champions").
    This I will not. I did not say that Hong Kong was a country; your original post said that '[American enjoys a]rguably the most economic freedoms in the world'; the administrative region of Hong Kong enjoys the most; America is joint twelfth. Government interference/intervention in the economy is one of the main variables taken into account in the Index of Economic Freedom. The interventionist policies of the government of Singapore are not sufficient to offset its liberality in trade, monetary policy, foreign investment, property rights, regulation, and so forth.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    The American Revolution was arguably a revolution for the US, but not a revolution for Britain. We changed our political system, not yours. A revolution is an attempt to change the socio-economic system.
    Yet we were affected- future relations with Canada were drastically changed; does that mean it was a revolution?

    Regardless- debating about the level of 'revolution' that was inspired does not change the fact that a revolution did occur.

    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Can you find a more objective way to rank countries than according to their prosperity and power?
    My point is that you cannot objectively rank them under the subjective heading of 'best'.

    Only objective or empirical questions can be answered in such a way.
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    (Original post by Trier)
    My point is that you cannot objectively rank them under the subjective heading of 'best'.

    Only objective or empirical questions can be answered in such a way.
    What do rational individuals strive for? Wealth and power. What do rational states strive for? Power. How is power achieved? Through having a prosperous economy and a large military with as wide a reach as possible. Therefore, since any rational country strives for an ever-increasing per capita income and ever-increasing military strength, it follows that any country that has the highest per capita income and the most military strength is objectively the best.
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    (Original post by svidrigailov)
    This I will not. I did not say that Hong Kong was a country; your original post said that '[American enjoys a]rguably the most economic freedoms in the world'; the administrative region of Hong Kong enjoys the most; America is joint twelfth. Government interference/intervention in the economy is one of the main variables taken into account in the Index of Economic Freedom. The interventionist policies of the government of Singapore are not sufficient to offset its liberality in trade, monetary policy, foreign investment, property rights, regulation, and so forth.
    By government interference, the Index refers to direct government intereference in the economy (i.e. high taxation and a lot of regulations). It does not measure the effects of the government giving interest-free loans to certain industries, which distorts the markets. Furthermore, depending on how much weight you give to each factor, America can be ranked much higher or much lower. Assuming you were using Cato's Index, you might also want to read the disclaimer:

    While statistical adjustments are made to enable comparisons between the nations with and without the survey data, such comparisons should be made with caution.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    What do rational individuals strive for? Wealth and power. What do rational states strive for? Power. How is power achieved? Through having a prosperous economy and a large military with as wide a reach as possible. Therefore, since any rational country strives for an ever-increasing per capita income and ever-increasing military strength, it follows that any country that has the highest per capita income and the most military strength is objectively the best.
    erm, I'm fairly sure that not everyone strives for wealth and power.

    They may be your personal ambitions, but the vast majority of people do not. Indeed, there is little to suggest that a contented life requires such things.

    Once again, your statement is not neccessarily true about countries.

    Countries work towards improving the life of their citizens- this does not neccessarily involve increasing their power.

    If the government of Denmark decided to start playing power-games or over-extending itself, it would have disastrous consequences.

    Likewise, the British Empire gave up much of its power to concentrate on that which mattered- the British people.

    Once again, you have subjectively chosen your own criteria that are in no way objective or indisputable to answer a question.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    By government interference, the Index refers to direct government intereference in the economy (i.e. high taxation and a lot of regulations). It does not measure the effects of the government giving interest-free loans to certain industries, which distorts the markets.

    I was not using Cato's 'Economic Freedom of the World Report', although the Cato report still puts Hong Kong first, and Singapore second. I was using the Index of Economic Freedom, as I have repeatedly said. Taxation and regulation are not subsumed under the category of 'government intervention in the economy', they are given their own sections. It certainly does 'measure the effects of the government giving interest-free loans to certain industries'. The precise role and nature, moreover, of GLCs and government-funding in Singapore are much disputed, and it's objectionable to premise your response on this particular case, and on the shifting sands of an advisory to make 'comparisons with caution'; this seems an idle resort to subjectivity, and an attempt to evade the original point.

    I simply wished to make it clear that America is not by any standard of reckoning the most free economy in the world; although one could certainly make a compelling case for its being in the top ten. Hong Kong approaches considerably nearer the laissez-faire capitalist ideal as a result of the policies effected by the colonial powers from the 1960s onward.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    1)Military presence in every part of the globe
    2)Ability to influence policy in every corner of the world
    3)Magnet to immigrants from every part of the world
    4)A country that has done more to preserve freedom and democracy in the world over the last 65 years than the entire world combined.
    I agree with all points, except the above four, with respect to trying to "prove" that the US is the greatest.

    1) How is this good? and not in France or China ....
    2) No in France, Germany, Russia or China...
    3) So is the UK, so is France, so is...dammit. So is everywhere :cool:
    4) how? Vietnam and Iraq are nothing to be proud of...
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    Of course Bismarck is using his own criteria, he does it in every discussion he 'contributes' towards.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Name a single attempt to overthrow the US government by someone from within?
    Gerald MacGuire et. al. in the 1930s.
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    (Original post by Phonicsdude)
    I agree with all points, except the above four, with respect to trying to "prove" that the US is the greatest.

    1) How is this good? and not in France or China ....
    Germany and Japan, which are in the same parts of the globe. And this is good because it means you can indirectly influence allies and protect your nation. Unless you'd rather the US didnt offer us assurances of protection?

    2) No in France, Germany, Russia or China...
    You dont have to have statesmen working inside foreign governments to influence their foreign policy. The US is a major player in almost every regional political scenario. From the EU to Asia.

    4) how? Vietnam and Iraq are nothing to be proud of...
    Iraq and Afghanistan are not more free and more democratic? And the Balkan nations who now cherish US opposition to their Soviet dictators? And Europe, where American presence helped defeat the Nazis? Intervention against Columbia to liberate Panama? The Korean War? Lebanon? Somalia? Bosnia? Kosovo?
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    (Original post by Alexdel)
    Of course Bismarck is using his own criteria, he does it in every discussion he 'contributes' towards.
    I thought he was asked to?
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    (Original post by Alexdel)
    Of course Bismarck is using his own criteria, he does it in every discussion he 'contributes' towards.
    Why the quotes? Are you suggesting he doesn't contribute towards any of the discussions he involves himself in?
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    (Original post by JonD)
    Why the quotes? Are you suggesting he doesn't contribute towards any of the discussions he involves himself in?
    Sherlock?! Is that you?!
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    (Original post by Tonight Matthew)
    Sherlock?! Is that you?!
    I think Alexdel would need Sherlock Holmes to find the evidence to back him up. Of course, Holmes would probably be too busy laughing at the irony of it all to do anything.
 
 
 

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