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    I think there should be a limit to the engine size of a car. Why on earth does anyone need a 5 litre engine in Britain? Or in most places in the world? Talk about pollution! Its completely unecessary. I think if there was a limit it would cut down pollution immensely.
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    Ah, that explains it.

    Seriously, does anyone know if we're likely to get into trouble if we do 35mph in a 40 year old Land Rover down the motorway?
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    (Original post by silent ninja)
    I think there should be a limit to the engine size of a car. Why on earth does anyone need a 5 litre engine in Britain? Or in most places in the world? Talk about pollution! Its completely unecessary. I think if there was a limit it would cut down pollution immensely.
    'Immensely'. Not really, since the majority of pollution isn't actually caused by cars. A much bigger polluter is aviation, for a start. If you thrash a 1.2L engine at 5000 RPM on a motorway, it'll give a very bad MPG and give out a lot of pollution, whereas a 5L engine would be working at about 2500 RPM, so would be more efficient. I frequently need to move a lot of stuff between place to place, and therefore need a car with a big loadspace, and hence, a bigger engine. If you banned my car, then every time I needed to move anything, i'd have to call a removals company.....who'd bring a 10L diesel lorry, which would cause far more pollution.
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    A few points I would like to make

    • The offroad question: for the vast majority of large 4x4's this isn't the point of them, they are pretty much large town crusiers now. a fashion image. Top gear took a few new models from BMW etc and they suffered badly in offroad situations. Furthermore the majority of users don't get anyway near "offroad" areas, let alone country lanes etc.
    • Safety issues. The main thing that annoys me about 4x4's is not the issue of personal driver/passenger safety, yes you are most likely safer. But the people you hit/crash into. Can you imagine a young child being hit by such big cars? smaller cars stand no chance against these machines.
    • the attitude of the drivers, as a driver myself i get incredibly annoyed by the drivers of 4x4's, they drive like they own the road. As they know they are bigger and more powerful than most cars around them. ignoring rules such as rights of way is one problem i've come across. and when does this size craze end?
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    (Original post by MattG)
    A few points I would like to make

    • The offroad question: for the vast majority of large 4x4's this isn't the point of them, they are pretty much large town crusiers now. a fashion image. Top gear took a few new models from BMW etc and they suffered badly in offroad situations. Furthermore the majority of users don't get anyway near "offroad" areas, let alone country lanes etc.
    Yeah thats another good point, most people who buy 4x4's do buy them as a fashion accesory and don't use them as off-road veichles, and these people are the majority of drivers who drive them thinking they own the road. They buy the porshe 4x4 (can't think of the name) the range rover's (brand new ones, e.g the range rover sport) and don't even have a clue on how to drive a 4x4 veichle.

    p.s i think you can get done for 35mph down the motorway, but if ya get pulled over just blag it lol!
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    Rubbish. We have a BMW X5 4.8i, and a Range Rover Vogue 4.4, and they are both fantastic off-road. They only do 10mpg, but its not you that should be concerned about the fuel consumption.
    Aeroplanes contribute significantly more to global pollution than motor vehicles, so why dont all you leftys use your energy more appropriately(har har), and go protest about them.
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    In America they have a special environmentally friendly range of 4x4's. But they are riduculously expensive.
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    (Original post by bs.uk)
    they feel safer because they know they will cause a load more damage to the car they hit than themselves...why drive a big 4x4 in a city like london?
    Yep. Ban them. Ban them all.
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    (Original post by addict)
    Rubbish. We have a BMW X5 4.8i, and a Range Rover Vogue 4.4, and they are both fantastic off-road. They only do 10mpg, but its not you that should be concerned about the fuel consumption.
    Aeroplanes contribute significantly more to global pollution than motor vehicles, so why dont all you leftys use your energy more appropriately(har har), and go protest about them.
    We also have the Range Rover 4.4, but get at least 18mpg combined? You must floor it constantly. And i'm sorry, the Range Rover is the best stock offroader money can buy, but the X5 is crap offroad - no low range and no locking diffs, it just sits there spinning.
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    Well we have never taken either off-road properly (mainly because they cost £40k each, and off-roading destroys the body work), but we dont live in the city, and some of the small muddy inclines are dealt with easily by both.

    The X5 is the 'sporty' X5, and is very very quick. Im suprised you manage to get 18mpg. The RR usually does about 15 on average, but the X5 rearly get above 12-13!

    Is your Range Rover the new shape? Dont you just love the interior, Pure luxury.
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    (Original post by addict)
    Is your Range Rover the new shape? Dont you just love the interior, Pure luxury.
    Aye, it's the new shape L322 (trust me - it's unstoppable offroad). Didn't like the old generation P38A - looked like a taxi from the back, and suffered major engine problems, but it was a very competant offroader. I guess we get good mpg as my mum drives like a slug on valium.
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    Today I was waiting to come out at a junction with usually fine visibilty, waiting to turn left. Then up drives a massive 4x4 waiting to turn right, and suddenly I can't see ANYTHING past it, I had to wait until they went before I could see enough for it to be safe for me to do anything! :mad: I live in the middle of a big city, there is no need for something like that!
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    (Original post by Lady Feef)
    Today I was waiting to come out at a junction with usually fine visibilty, waiting to turn left. Then up drives a massive 4x4 waiting to turn right, and suddenly I can't see ANYTHING past it, I had to wait until they went before I could see enough for it to be safe for me to do anything! :mad: I live in the middle of a big city, there is no need for something like that!
    I agree in part. However, what if the person worked in the city, but lived in the country, and only had one car (the 4x4)? What if a Ford Transit van had blocked your view and all it had in the back was one tool box?
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    Some facts that I have picked up:

    Safety in general:

    UK insurance industry figures from Churchill show that urban 4x4s are involved in 25% more accidents than saloon cars and do far more damage.

    Admiral Insurance also recently released figures showing that 4x4 drivers are 27% more likely to be at fault in the event of an accident.

    Big 4x4s are right at the bottom of the class when it comes to pedestrian safety, getting an average Euro-NCAP crash test score of just 4 out of 36, compared with 10 and 13 for large and small family cars, respectively.

    Environment:

    And for people advocating the use of diesel engined 4x4s as more 'fuel efficient', whilst you do indeed get more mpgs, they produce vastly more nitrous oxide (NOx) and particulate (PM10) emissions.

    4x4s need up to 50 per cent more energy to build than other cars
    - University of Brighton, 2005

    From personal experience, (I have not travelled in every type of 4x4 or people carrier so this is from what I have sampled) People carriers seem to have significantly more interior space than the equivalent 4x4.

    There is truth in the argument that larger engines are more efficient, but it is ridiculous to suggest that a 4 litre engine is more effificient for city driving than a significantly smaller engine. - As ever there is an optimum size.

    The argument that 4x4 get as many mpgs as saloon cars strikes me as a little daft. True - there will be specific examples where an ineficient saloon is compared to a relatively efficient 4x4, but you can't escape two simple laws of Physics. 1.) A 4x4 generally weighs significantly more than a standard saloon. Since Power = mass x velocity, a correspondingly greater output power is required of the engine. 2.) The higher and often wider profile of 4x4s also increases air resistance, again requiring more fuel to overcome this.

    I am well aware that people disagree with my opinion. It is not formed on political grounds, but on scientific fact and my own experience. I accept there are several sensible uses for 4x4s and I don't disagree with this. I do disagree with the suggestion that for transporting larger loads, owning a 4x4 would be a more fuel efficient method. I very much doubt you would seriously hire a 45tonne artic to transport something you couldn't quite fit in a car. You'd find a vehicle to suit your needs best. I'd be interested to hear your responses.
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    I think only people who really need 4x4s should be allowed to have them. You should just see the havoc they cause outside middle class schools with all their non working mothers arriving at the same time to pick up their one precious spoiled brat in a huge great mother of a car.
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    (Original post by PhilipGarsed)
    It is not formed on political grounds, but on scientific fact
    When you say 'scientific fact', what you actually mean is 'statistics', which are not one and the same.

    I believe the week that Churchill released the accident stats, another insurer released figures to the contrary - I will try and find them later.

    As for the figures about energy required to produce a car - Over 2/3 of all Land Rovers ever produced are still running, and the most popular 4x4 in the UK is a Land Rover - so the cars don't end up on the scrap heap after 15 years, like most others will.

    As for the fuel consumption of Saloon Vs. 4x4. We have a Merc S600 and that gets 17mpg combined. The 4.4L Range Rover gets 19mpg combined (both these cars are some of the most 'inefficient' in their classes) Also, as i've said earlier, the most popular 4x4 in the UK is more fuel efficient than a Mini Cooper. The point is that, stats prove nothing, they can easily be made to work for one side or the other.

    On the city driving front I agree in theory. Your theory being that the 4x4 is only driven in the city. It may be driven in the country/offroad for most of its time, and just commute into the city for work each day (I know many people who do this, as they have only one car).

    Your diesel engine arguement is flawed insofaras it's not targeted towards 4x4s in general, rather at all diesel engined cars.

    A comparitively high proportion of 4x4s run on LPG - very clean fuel.

    As for load transporting - a 4x4 is easily the best option in my experience. It can hold vastly more than normal cars, and a lot more than estates. In the last 8 weeks, it's been loaded to capacity at least 10 times. Now, by your reasoning, I should buy a van as I transport loads. That means I have to buy 2 vehicles (a car and a van), and surely that's a bigger waste of resources, isn't it? Our 4x4 does the school run, but it also goes offroad, and carries loads around. If you can find a more efficient alternative, i'll gladly look into it.
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    (Original post by SyncMaster_770)
    When you say 'scientific fact', what you actually mean is 'statistics', which are not one and the same.

    I believe the week that Churchill released the accident stats, another insurer released figures to the contrary - I will try and find them later.

    As for the figures about energy required to produce a car - Over 2/3 of all Land Rovers ever produced are still running, and the most popular 4x4 in the UK is a Land Rover - so the cars don't end up on the scrap heap after 15 years, like most others will.

    As for the fuel consumption of Saloon Vs. 4x4. We have a Merc S600 and that gets 17mpg combined. The 4.4L Range Rover gets 19mpg combined (both these cars are some of the most 'inefficient' in their classes) Also, as i've said earlier, the most popular 4x4 in the UK is more fuel efficient than a Mini Cooper. The point is that, stats prove nothing, they can easily be made to work for one side or the other.

    On the city driving front I agree in theory. Your theory being that the 4x4 is only driven in the city. It may be driven in the country/offroad for most of its time, and just commute into the city for work each day (I know many people who do this, as they have only one car).

    Your diesel engine arguement is flawed insofaras it's not targeted towards 4x4s in general, rather at all diesel engined cars.

    A comparitively high proportion of 4x4s run on LPG - very clean fuel.

    As for load transporting - a 4x4 is easily the best option in my experience. It can hold vastly more than normal cars, and a lot more than estates. In the last 8 weeks, it's been loaded to capacity at least 10 times. Now, by your reasoning, I should buy a van as I transport loads. That means I have to buy 2 vehicles (a car and a van), and surely that's a bigger waste of resources, isn't it? Our 4x4 does the school run, but it also goes offroad, and carries loads around. If you can find a more efficient alternative, i'll gladly look into it.
    Whoops - slight error there. I meant to say Kinetic Energy = Mass x Velocity^2 and Power = Force x Velocity - I'm too tired to think straight!!! (It comes to the same conclusion as before). (That incidentally is the scientific FACT and not statistics)

    I had a fairly detailed reply written out but managed to delete it in Firefox :mad:. I'll continue the debate tomorrow after some sleep!

    Goodnight!
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    (Original post by bs.uk)
    Personally i believe 4x4's should be banned from the uk roads (especially city centres). Why do people need a 4x4 if they live in the middle of london and never go off road...

    1. The MPG
    2. Take up the roads
    3. Purely about status and nothing else
    4. Pollution
    PERSONALLY I HAVE THREE 4X4'S AND I THINK YOUR A KNOB FOR STARTING THIS THREAD SO U WANT BEEF COME DRIVE INTO ME U UNTC.
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    Yeh...U cant tell people how to spend their own money....if they want a 4x4 they can hav 1.
    I personally hav no problem with them
    neway give it 10-15 years and a lot of vehicles will b built with those hydrogen cells.
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    (Original post by glenn321)
    PERSONALLY I HAVE THREE 4X4'S AND I THINK YOUR A KNOB FOR STARTING THIS THREAD SO U WANT BEEF COME DRIVE INTO ME U UNTC.
    Let me assure you that this man is not representative of the 4x4 community - he is a moron. Glenn, this is a reasoned debate, either make a valid point for discussion, or knob off.
 
 
 
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