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    Yesterday's attacks on London/Londoners and the rhetoric emplyed by much of the media that this was 'Britain's September 11th' made me reflect on the history in which the evnt is situated, i.e the Madrid Bombings, the War on terror and 9/11 itself. I wondered why the response to madrid and london employed the language of a crime, crime scenes, police investigation etc. (and i think the same is true for the madrid bombings as well though correct me please if i am wrong as i am not totally sure) whereas the rhetorical and policy reponse to 9/11 revolved around 'war'.
    What accounts for this difference? Is it the number of casualties the scale of the attacks, or something different, perhaps US political culture which often resorts to an apocalyptic imagery? Would like to hear what people think....my position on this is undecided, so the above ideas are thoughts, not arguments.
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    (Original post by Masonne)
    Yesterday's attacks on London/Londoners and the rhetoric emplyed by much of the media that this was 'Britain's September 11th' made me reflect on the history in which the evnt is situated, i.e the Madrid Bombings, the War on terror and 9/11 itself. I wondered why the response to madrid and london employed the language of a crime, crime scenes, police investigation etc. (and i think the same is true for the madrid bombings as well though correct me please if i am wrong as i am not totally sure) whereas the rhetorical and policy reponse to 9/11 revolved around 'war'.
    What accounts for this difference? Is it the number of casualties the scale of the attacks, or something different, perhaps US political culture which often resorts to an apocalyptic imagery? Would like to hear what people think....my position on this is undecided, so the above ideas are thoughts, not arguments.
    1. The scale of the attacks
    2. The Source of the attacks (foreign or domestic)
    3. The efficacy of which services should respond

    The fact is that war is merely a label ... it isnt a definite concept.

    There is a guy here at Oxford who is doing a Dphil (Phd) on the "law of war" which will involve no doubt some notion of what a war is. He is entering his 28th year without having finished.
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    1. The scale of the attacks
    2. The Source of the attacks (foreign or domestic)
    3. The efficacy of which services should respond

    The fact is that war is merely a label ... it isnt a definite concept.

    There is a guy here at Oxford who is doing a Dphil (Phd) on the "law of war" which will involve no doubt some notion of what a war is. He is entering his 28th year without having finished.
    I think he's got a good thing going there...
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    1. The scale of the attacks
    2. The Source of the attacks (foreign or domestic)
    3. The efficacy of which services should respond

    The fact is that war is merely a label ... it isnt a definite concept.

    There is a guy here at Oxford who is doing a Dphil (Phd) on the "law of war" which will involve no doubt some notion of what a war is. He is entering his 28th year without having finished.
    28th??? hope i dont take that long.
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    (Original post by Masonne)
    28th??? hope i dont take that long.
    Yup ... celebrated his quater century recently!

    Has 400k words on scrap ... apparently ...


    His contemporaries are now his supervisors.
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    Bill Hicks said "a war is when TWO armies are fighting". That's a pretty good place to begin. WWII was a war. The Falklands was a war. The war on terror is not a war. It's very obvious why these terrorist acts are correctly being treated as criminal actions here in Britain but weren't in America - no one in power wants to use them as excuses to go to war.

    It's worth pointing out though that talk of 9/11 as an act of war was not instantaneous. The US services responded to it not even as a criminal action but as an emergency and did an incredible job in the face of something simply horrific. We should never allow the tragedy and bravery of the people involved in 9/11 be forgotten simply because of the government's abuse of the event.
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    Figthing terrorism is not solely a law enforcement issue, it IS a military issue as well.

    Technically the war on terror does have 2 sides, islamic fundamentalism vs western democracy.
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    (Original post by Tomorrow2Day)
    The Falklands was a war.
    Actually it was a 'conflict', war was never officially declared between Argentina and UK.
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    halloweenjack, why?
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    (Original post by Eternal Idol)
    Actually it was a 'conflict', war was never officially declared between Argentina and UK.
    True. But two national armies were fighting. I guess it's not a perfect example though.
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    Ok let me give you some examples:

    2001 - Bin Laden is in Afghanistan - Taliban refuse to hand him over, what do you do ? Send the FBI in ?

    Look at British Govts fight against terrorism in Northern Ireland, the military were used from very early on. Most countries use their military against terrorism or like Italy and Germany they make the police almost as well armed as the military.
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    (Original post by halloweenjack)
    Ok let me give you some examples:

    2001 - Bin Laden is in Afghanistan - Taliban refuse to hand him over, what do you do ? Send the FBI in ?
    We knew Bin Laden was there? This is news to me. As I remember, the Taliban asked for evidence that any of the people we demanded were handed over had committed any crime and the US refused to supply any. Afghanistan was then invaded.
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    (Original post by halloweenjack)
    Ok let me give you some examples:

    2001 - Bin Laden is in Afghanistan - Taliban refuse to hand him over, what do you do ? Send the FBI in ?

    Look at British Govts fight against terrorism in Northern Ireland, the military were used from very early on. Most countries use their military against terrorism or like Italy and Germany they make the police almost as well armed as the military.
    Where is Bin Laden? :confused:
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    Bin Laden had been moving between Sudan and Afghanistan and was wanted not only for 9-11 but for the USS Cole bombing, the 2 us embassy bombings in Africa and the first WTC bombing. So giving them evidence had nothing to do with it. The Taliban wanted to put him under house arrest, the us wanted him handed over.
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    (Original post by halloweenjack)
    Bin Laden had been moving between Sudan and Afghanistan and was wanted not only for 9-11 but for the USS Cole bombing, the 2 us embassy bombings in Africa and the first WTC bombing. So giving them evidence had nothing to do with it. The Taliban wanted to put him under house arrest, the us wanted him handed over.
    And that's what they did, right?
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    No idea whether they did or not and to be honest it shouldn't matter. He should have been handed over to the US for justice to be served. He wasn't so an invasion was the only way of getting him. To be honest i think the Taliban thought the US were bluffing and still wanted to look tough in the face of the US.

    America called their bluff
 
 
 

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