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Blaming Muslims (merged with muslim, terror and reality) watch

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    (Original post by Tonight Matthew)
    How so? They both purport to be the word of their respective god. Where exactly in the Bible does it say ".. but if you don't think this is right, just forget it!"?
    The bible doesn't purport to be the word of god! If you believe that then Islam couldn't even exist in the first place because the bible would have sufficed. The bible is a human construction, written by numerous people.
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    The bible doesn't purport to be the word of god! If you believe that then Islam couldn't even exist in the first place because the bible would have sufficed. The bible is a human construction, written by numerous people.
    It's 'divinely inspired' though.
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    (Original post by Tonight Matthew)
    You really shouldn't make such generalisations about the followers of a group based on fundamentalist intepretations of their bible. Following your logic, we can safely conclude that all Christians believe that wives are property of the husband (Exodus), that women shouldn't speak for themselves and settle for asking their husbands (I Corinthians) and that women ought to marry rapists (Deuteronomy).
    Good work.
    No, you make the usual eror of confusing Muslims (those who submit to these teachings) and non-Muslims (who don't). I made the distinction clear, and said we should blame criminals alone for their actions. The indulgence of Islam and denial of precisely what it is has heavy costs, borne yesterday by innocents, better if the mindless indulgers were the first to die.

    Christianity, I'm no fan, had it's reformation, less chance that Islam will.

    (Original post by Speleo)
    It's 'divinely inspired' though.
    That's debateable, interpretable, and generally a far cry from what effectively is somebody saying I AM GOD AND IF YOU DON'T DO THIS THEN YOU WILL HAVE ETERNAL SUFFERING IN HELL. The bible is subject to no end of interpretation, flavouring, 'I'll ignore that because it's 2000 years later and not applicable.' The qur'an forces you to take all or nothing, to even think of interpreting direct, explicit instruction is a massive inconsistency and hypocrisy.
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    (Original post by homoterrorr)
    That's debateable, interpretable, and generally a far cry from what effectively is somebody saying I AM GOD AND IF YOU DON'T DO THIS THEN YOU WILL HAVE ETERNAL SUFFERING IN HELL.
    (Original post by Jesus)
    I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
    Would tend to suggest the Bible says if you don't follow Christianity and its teachings (i.e., the Bible), then you will be going to hell.

    Firstly, so says John, not god, or his son. This is not as strong a statement as Allah himself making explicit, earthly demands.

    Secondly, that's a broad statement, going through Jesus can be interpreted to be alot of things, you've still got the entire bible to interpret and decide what 'going through Jesus' demands.
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    (Original post by homoterrorr)
    Firstly, so says John, not god, or his son. This is not as strong a statement as Allah himself making explicit, earthly demands.

    Secondly, that's a broad statement, going through Jesus can be interpreted to be alot of things, you've still got the entire bible to interpret and decide what 'going through Jesus' demands.
    Strange. A number of Christians I've talked to in the past have specifically said that one must accept Jesus and his teachings to avoid going to hell.
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    (Original post by Tonight Matthew)
    Strange. A number of Christians I've talked to in the past have specifically said that one must accept Jesus and his teachings to avoid going to hell.
    I'm not contradicting this, I just don't agree that this somehow turns the bible into the same explicit, uninterpretable instruction that is the qur'an. It's still nothing more than a book of stories written by third party mortals intended to give you an idea what living your life by Jesus demands.

    If the bible was anything like the qur'an, the qur'an would simply not exist, it's the fluffy nature of the bible that allowed a 'final prophet' religion to come along.
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    Oh, the paranoia.
    Would it be paranoid to think agents of the regime would come into your Paris home and decapitate you? It's happened.

    Hmmmmmmmm. Why would the Islamic Republic want to attack London?

    Why not Washington?
    Because Britain has always done deals with the Mullahs. Britain does not want war in Iran. The Iranian regime is sending a message to London. Do not support any US aggression or we will bring the war to your back yard. Iran and terrorism were the main themese of discussions today at the G8, and there was a demonstration by the main opposition group in Edinburgh.

    The Quran, hadiths, and the universal and eternal Islamic war on non-believers are the true pointers. The nice-Muslim siting next to you in class, either isn't a Muslim (one who submits) or is too clever to be honest.
    It is not your job to say if people are muslims or not. There are top muslims theorists who have a much deeper understanding of the religion than you ever will have who have radically different interpretations of Islam than yourself or Abu Hamza.

    Just seems odd that you, in your position, are able to rule out a suicide bomber, whilst authorities who have scanned the debris / talked to people etc. are not willing to do so.
    I didn't rule it out. I just believe it was Iran and therefore not likely to be a suicide bomber. If the perpetrator was on the bus at the time, it's very possible it detonated at the wrong time. We shall have to wait and see.
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    (Original post by Hach)
    After reading some posts some people have labelled all muslims to be terrorists and that they are to blame. I think that this is creating more animosity and by doing so this is only going to lead to more segregation.

    My condolences are with the families and friends of the victims of yesterdays attacks.

    I believe that to blame all muslims is totally wrong, as in islam it teaches to condemn all terrorists acts, and those who claim to be islamist terrorists are actually not part of the islam faith and are not true muslims. The two words do not mix.

    But what i still find strange is after september 11th a documentary was shown on Channel 4 suggesting that Al- Qaeda was actually made up?

    How come each time a terrorist attack takes place Muslims are blamed? I do not look to blame anyone but this could be the work of any terrorist group i.e the IRA? Furthermore in time if this is blamed on the Al Qaeda which may exist i believe they should be punished and justice should prevail, but will thsi mean more religious wars maybe this time in Iran???????
    I agree mostly with what you are saying but I do think that the Muslim community must accept partial responsibility. If the London terrorists turn out to be Muslims, then it is likely they would have come into contact with the Muslim community. The Muslim community should make it their duty to make potential extremists known to the relevant authorities. I may be wrong to presume that this does not occur, but I sometimes get the impression from Muslim groups that they do not accept this is a problem within their faith. It often appears that they see it as being a seperate issue.

    Also, I feel it is unfair to expect that Muslims would not be blamed. During the 1970's and 1980's if there was a terrorist attack I am sure the IRA would have been the first to be blamed. It is because the major terrorist attacks of the 21st Century have been Muslim related that this is where our initial accusations are made. I believe that the majority of Muslims are peace-loving and would condemn the terrorist attacks. However, the majority of terrorists claim to act on the name of Islam so unfortunately many Muslims may be wrongly accused.
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    (Original post by John82)
    Also, I feel it is unfair to expect that Muslims would not be blamed.
    Make the distiction between Pakistanis and Bangladeshis (who are nominally Muslims, pretend to be Muslims, vaguely think of themselves as Muslims) and Muslims (those who submit).

    If we can't do that, and they clearly can't do that themselves, we need to be honest about the problem of Islam, and then the problem of the nominally Muslim ethnic minorities and any other idiot who 'reverts'.
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    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    Make the distiction between Pakistanis and Bangladeshis (who are nominally Muslims, pretend to be Muslims, vaguely think of themselves as Muslims) and Muslims (those who submit).

    If we can't do that, and they clearly can't do that themselves, we need to be honest about the problem of Islam, and then the problem of the nominally Muslim ethnic minorities and any other idiot who 'reverts'.
    So lets be honest then...what exactly is the problem of islam? And how do you arrive to this conclusion after a terrorist attack which 1. we still do not have reliable sources as to who has committed it and 2. if it was al-qaida or another group attached to it how does this translate to a general problem of islam.
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    (Original post by homoterror)
    The style of the Qur'an is different, it's alot harder to escape the instructions of it as a Muslim, than it is for Christians to escape the instructions of the bible.
    not really... christians have just changed the message to something they like more/made the interpretations more tolerant to society over the years.

    The problem i have with all the Islam bashing that has occurred is that all the things being said could have easily been said about christianity just 200 years ago. But nobody seems to acknowledge that.

    And despite what some people have said, islam is a peaceful religion...or as peaceful as christiainity anyway. Generalising them all into one group or claiming they arent ''real'' muslims if they arent crazed terrorists is just silly and doesnt help anyone (aimed at the other poster).

    Meh, i just felt like posting, though i dont do that a lot lol
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    (Original post by Alexdel)
    So lets be honest then...what exactly is the problem of islam? And how do you arrive to this conclusion after a terrorist attack which 1. we still do not have reliable sources as to who has committed it and 2. if it was al-qaida or another group attached to it how does this translate to a general problem of islam.
    You link the London events with my comments, I was deliberately trying to broaden the discussion. Is there justification for violent Jihad to be found in Islamic doctrine? The Quran and Hadiths ever quoted as justification? If so, this part of discussion over.

    Bin Laden 1 or 2

    Discussion over. Don't wate time pretending that things are not as they are. Deal with reality or shut up.
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    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    You link the London events with my comments, I was deliberately trying to broaden the discussion. Is there justification for violent Jihad to be found in Islamic doctrine? The Quran and Hadiths ever quoted as justification? If so, this part of discussion over.

    Bin Laden 1 or 2

    Discussion over. Don't wate time pretending that things are not as they are. Deal with reality or shut up.
    ...
    maybe you should shut up >.>

    if you checked a little more on the Qu'ran you would find that there are in fact some RULES for something to be claimed as a jihad. im not sure what they all are, but some basic ones are: no innocent civilians should be killed, no plants/animals should be killed, it should be declared with a majority of the muslims approving of it (or something simillar). I think you'd find these rules have already been broken by the terrorists, so what they are doing is a lie anyway. It isnt a jihad to most muslims.
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    (Original post by MoomooCow)
    ...
    maybe you should shut up >.>

    if you checked a little more on the Qu'ran you would find that there are in fact some RULES for something to be claimed as a jihad. im not sure what they all are, but some basic ones are: no innocent civilians should be killed, no plants/animals should be killed, it should be declared with a majority of the muslims approving of it (or something simillar). I think you'd find these rules have already been broken by the terrorists, so what they are doing is a lie anyway. It isnt a jihad to most muslims.
    You make the same mistake as the other two apologists for Islam (notice not terror, although at a stretch...).
    Is there justification for violent Jihad in the Quran and Hadiths? If so non-muslims have a problem that needs to be honestly faced, refusing to look squarely at what Islamic doctrine says is stupid.

    Be honest or shut up. I don't say anything I can't back up.
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    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    You make the same mistake as the other two apologists for Islam (notice not terror, although at a stretch...).
    Is there justification for violent Jihad in the Quran and Hadiths? If so non-muslims have a problem that needs to be honestly faced, refusing to look squarely at what Islamic doctrine says is stupid.

    Be honest or shut up. I don't say anything I can't back up.
    But the Bible was also used as justification for so many other awful things in the past. Why should Islam be treated so much more differently. The problem can't be tackled the way so many people are suggesting. Deporting muslims, hating them will do nothing but make the situation worse. i dont really see what your point is by bringing this topic up...
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    (Original post by MoomooCow)
    But the Bible was also used as justification for so many other awful things in the past. Why should Islam be treated so much more differently. The problem can't be tackled the way so many people are suggesting. Deporting muslims, hating them will do nothing but make the situation worse. i dont really see what your point is by bringing this topic up...
    I suspect when you're talking about deporting 'Muslims' (which I've never proposed), you're thinking of hundreds of thousands or millions of people. Muslims (properly understood) are a tiny minority of the supposedly Muslim community.

    I'm limiting my posts in the thread "Blaming Muslims" to discussion of who we blame for the bombings yesterday (just the perps I've said) and how we deal with an antagonistic and aggressive minority whose religious beliefs mandate violent Jihad.

    First step in dealing with Islam is necessarily being honest about what it is. Pretending it's all about flowers and love hearts is dishonest and dangerous.
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    First step in dealing with Islam is necessarily being honest about what it is.
    the quicker people recognise the difference between murdering, terrorising idiots and peaceful, law abiding Muslims - the better.

    (Original post by MoomooCow)
    not really... christians have just changed the message to something they like more/made the interpretations more tolerant to society over the years.

    The problem i have with all the Islam bashing that has occurred is that all the things being said could have easily been said about christianity just 200 years ago. But nobody seems to acknowledge that.

    And despite what some people have said, islam is a peaceful religion...or as peaceful as christiainity anyway. Generalising them all into one group or claiming they arent ''real'' muslims if they arent crazed terrorists is just silly and doesnt help anyone (aimed at the other poster).

    Meh, i just felt like posting, though i dont do that a lot lol
    You don't seem to have understood or acknowledged what I'm saying about the style of guidance in the qur'an. You realise it's god's unaltered word according to Muslims? And explicit instruction. This makes it fundamentally different to the bible.

    Most people criticising Islam would also criticise christianity too btw.
 
 
 

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