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Is "Shameless" an accurate representation of British working classes today? watch

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    (Original post by objectivism)
    It has the utmost value. Your argument is that since we have no experience we are not informed and thus can't comment. My point is that you don't have to be experienced to be informed. This is of course the case or do you suggest those who write on N. Korea, 18century France, the USSR etc shouldn;t because they did not 'experience' it?
    Political history is a completely different matter.

    We all know that Hitler mudered hundreds of thousands of jews, and people write about that.
    On the other hand, do we know that all working classes have tattoos and fart at the dinner table? Of course not.

    In discussing subjects like this, i think an informed and experienced input is essential.
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    (Original post by zaf1986)
    If you can't handle UC being referred to as "toffs", then don't call the WC "scum". Is that clear enough?
    1) I never said wc were scum, rather some which i went onto define as the irrespectbale wc.
    2) I support my assertions with facts and common sense. Anyone who goes to a sink estate and see's the mess knows that it was scum who created that decay.
    3) The person who called foxhunters toffs offered no support for his assertion.
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    1) I never said wc were scum, rather some which i went onto define as the irrespectbale wc.
    2) I support my assertions with facts and common sense. Anyone who goes to a sink estate and see's the mess knows that it was scum who created that decay.
    3) The person who called foxhunters toffs offered no support for his assertion.
    How does calling them "scum" offer a solution to the problem? Rather it alienates them even more, and if there was any chance they could reform it won't happen.
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    (Original post by Beekeeper)
    Political history is a completely different matter.

    We all know that Hitler mudered hundreds of thousands of jews, and people write about that.
    On the other hand, do we know that all working classes have tattoos and fart at the dinner table? Of course not.

    In discussing subjects like this, i think an informed and experienced input is essential.

    What about social history? Is that wrong?

    I'm not talking about table manners im talking about things such as crime and education and health. I'm concerned with more important manners. Are civil servants not informed? Are political parties advisors not informed? After all few come from sink estates, do you think they should not comment on this issue because they happen to look at the broader picture i.e facts from many estates as opposed to just one.
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    (Original post by zaf1986)
    How does calling them "scum" offer a solution to the problem? Rather it alienates them even more, and if there was any chance they could reform it won't happen.


    I'm concerned with helping the hard working aspiring people who are being held back by those who with no aims apart from stealing cars.
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    What about social history? Is that wrong?

    I'm not talking about table manners im talking about things such as crime and education and health. I'm concerned with more important manners. Are civil servants not informed? Are political parties advisors not informed? After all few come from sink estates, do you think they should not comment on this issue because they happen to look at the broader picture i.e facts from many estates as opposed to just one.
    I'm sorry, but your comments smack of naked prejudice:

    Yes, many wc people are scum. Many drink too much, smoke, steal, and lack ambition.
    Where does the "scum" comment fall here then?

    I doubt a political party advisor would come out with such a comment...
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    I consider myself wc and I am being truthful when i say where i live it is not like what is represented in shameless. I am not 'in denial'. I you want to know about wc then ask away....
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    (Original post by Beekeeper)
    I'm sorry, but your comments smack of naked prejudice:



    Where does the "scum" comment fall here then?

    I doubt a political party advisor would come out with such a comment...
    yes but thats because he/she is trying to get as many votes as possible..
    so politicians will try not to offend anyone generally :P
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    (Original post by Beekeeper)
    I'm sorry, but your comments smack of naked prejudice:



    Where does the "scum" comment fall here then?

    I doubt a political party advisor would come out with such a comment...

    You have not answered my question or addressed my posts.

    Your mixing up two points. Your point was that those who have not experienced can't comment. Now you have moved the emphasis from that to the my scum point. Policy advisors are informed and can make informed judgemtns that was my point. They can do this because they read up on the issues like me. Thats not to say we come to the same jjudgments e.g that certain members of the wc are scum.
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    The underclass is just another phrase for saying the disreputable working class.
    Nope. The underclass are not economically active whereas the working class -notice the working bit there - are. They are as distinct as the middle class and the aristocracy.
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    what exactly defines the working class these days? surely the very jobs that once defined them, builders, dustmen, plumbers, electricians, mining, factory work etc are either non existant or carrying a distinctly middle class salary. The really low paid work seems to be ocupied by forign workers.. certainly walk into your nearest resturant and play spot the southafrican/austrailian they see to be everywhere.

    I think allot of the scum you are refering to you your rather broad sweep would be the youth that are spawned by the socialsecurity system limpets. People with no work ethic who still cling violently to a tital of working class.

    thing is they are anything but.

    Sorry if this has been covered.. skiped a few pages
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    (Original post by little.rebel.L)
    what exactly defines the working class these days?
    Good question. I think id have to define the middle class first (i.e. what income range counts as middle class these days) and then simply conclude that anyone who is economically active and earning less than the minimum 'middle class' income is working class although consideration of standard of education achieved may make it rather harder to define satisfactorily.
    I think allot of the scum you are refering to you your rather broad sweep would be the youth that are spawned by the socialsecurity system limpets.
    Yes. The underclass and the working class have been confused throughout the thread. The former are the cause of most crime etc and leech from the welfare state whereas the latter are just as respectable as the middle class with the only difference being lower incomes and lower standard of education.
    People with no work ethic who still cling violently to a tital of working class.
    Indeed and the fact that some 30 year old drug addict multiple offender father of 10 by 10 different mothers who has never in his life had a job chooses to describe himself as 'working class' can no more make him so than Hyacinth Buckets pretensions make her a member of the aristocracy.
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    It is not only pay that makes someone working class as compared with middle class: equally important are behaviour, assumptions and attitudes. One important difference between the working class and the lumpenproletariat is actually class identification- the working class think of themselves as working class.
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    Nope. The underclass are not economically active whereas the working class -notice the working bit there - are. They are as distinct as the middle class and the aristocracy.
    I'm concerned with real issues not being pedantic. The wc is the wc.
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    I'm concerned with real issues not being pedantic.
    :rolleyes:
    The wc is the wc.
    Yes just as the underclass is the underclass. Anyone with knowledge or experience of both classes would accept that they are quite distinct.
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    :rolleyes:

    Yes just as the underclass is the underclass. Anyone with knowledge or experience of both classes would accept that they are quite distinct.


    I did recognise the irrespectable wc. Your just being pedantic. Please deal with the issues.
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    I did recognise the irrespectable wc.
    No you simply incorrectly classify the underclass as part of the working class - a concept which the working class would find quite offensive and one which would not be held by anyone who has experience of the respective groups.
    Your just being pedantic.
    If you class being right as pedantic then so be it.
    Please deal with the issues.
    I have done. I answered the thread question and pointed out your incorrect lumping together of two distinct social groupings.
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    No you simply incorrectly classify the underclass as part of the working class - a concept which the working class would find quite offensive and one which would not be held by anyone who has experience of the respective groups.
    Excuses, excuses.
    If you class being right as pedantic then so be it.

    Your not right, your just using a different word.
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    Excuses, excuses.
    Excuses for what? For being accurate? For being correct? You are wrong. Deal with it.
    Your not right, your just using a different word.
    I am right. The underclass is not a part of the working class thus your description of them as the 'disreputable working class' or whatever is incorrect. Incidently that should be you're not your - now THAT is pedantry whereas pointing out that you have incorrectly lumped two distinct sections of society together is not.
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    They are. In fact why do you stop there, are they even a class, isn't it absurd to call them a class - insulting to other classes? Why stop where you stop?
    No theyre not. Yes they are a class. No it is not insulting to other classes. Why stop where i stop? Stop what exactly? I realise talking in an abstract manner can be quite useful when attempting to avoid an issue/move away from one youre losing but it doesnt really serve any valuable purpose otherwise. The working class and the underclass are distinct. Something which has been proved previously in the thread and which you have been unable to respond with anything other than silly cries of 'pedantry.' Now unless you intend to actually make an attempt at refuting this accepted truth you may as well stay silent.
    Thanks you've just confirmed my view that you are pedantic.
    :rolleyes:
 
 
 
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