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Is "Shameless" an accurate representation of British working classes today? watch

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    I gave it a brief go. Doesn't it ridicule a social class and their lifestyles? Seemed nasty and sneering. Mike Leigh films have the same schizo paternalistic concern/implicitly mocking attitude.

    And Threlfall (the father) and the actress from Dinnerladies (the neighbour) are terrible over actors, particularly the broad accents (almost caricatures).
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    (Original post by little.rebel.L)
    what exactly defines the working class these days? surely the very jobs that once defined them, builders, dustmen, plumbers, electricians, mining, factory work etc are either non existant or carrying a distinctly middle class salary. The really low paid work seems to be ocupied by forign workers.. certainly walk into your nearest resturant and play spot the southafrican/austrailian they see to be everywhere.

    I think allot of the scum you are refering to you your rather broad sweep would be the youth that are spawned by the socialsecurity system limpets. People with no work ethic who still cling violently to a tital of working class.

    thing is they are anything but.

    Sorry if this has been covered.. skiped a few pages
    hear hear. There is the underclass, and then the working class, and anyone who doesnt see this is entirely ignorant. the underclass were born out of working class, but now they are their own group, hence why the term is used in the wider world.
    objectivist guy simply has no idea- he is predjudiced. he cannot see that his points make little sense. he wont accept what beekeeper is trying to say about how he cant make informed opinions.object- you have a biased opinion.you read the mail, or whatever, you see the youths who beat grannies up, and steal cars, and you then decide that all, or most, or a lot, of "working class" people are scum. It amazes me that people who are intellectual, or well educated, as you are, are also blind and stupid, and make huge generalisations so easily, and take one thing and assume it must lead to the other, without looking at circumstances, without speaking to w,class people, or knowing any, i could go on and on in my usual ungrammatical way (be sure to comment on it inyour reply) but i cant really be bothered to get into another argument. i keep trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but thn you post more poisonous filth.thank the world that there are not many people on this earth like you. there is no room for predjudice here.
    god i wonder what this countr would be like if left to objective guy? and i wonder what kind of upbringing he must have had that led him to have the views he possesses? he is as bad as any dirty chav- he is the precise opposite in class terms, but lets see the similarities. lets take the chav science from bb for example. he doesnt listen. he wont reason.he doesnt accept when he is wrong.he fails to take other peoples opinions into account.he has views on things he doesnt know, which is fair enough, only he treats them as absolute truths rather than seeing they are only his opinions. the difference between object and science is education.

    he picks at peoples arguments, doing the classic straw man thing, and taking qoutes out of context so they sound wrong. thank god there are not many people like object.thank god.

    no more personal comments from me now (i hope).object, be the bigger man and just read what i have put, but dnt post back a crappy comment on how wrong i am, complete with an indignant list of the ways you and science are different (though i dont suspect you would do this as you will claim you, being so posh and priviliged and all, have no idea what, or who science is.Big brother?that thing for the scum to watch!)
    and yes, my typing is terrible, but i love it.
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    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    And Threlfall (the father) and the actress from Dinnerladies (the neighbour) are terrible over actors, particularly the broad accents (almost caricatures).
    You're kidding? As if Shameless was meant to be a caricature...
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    (Original post by objectivism)
    Yes, many wc people are scum. Many drink too much, smoke, steal, and lack ambition.
    Well considering you were having a go at me about stereotyping i sgguest you take a long look in the mirror hypocrit
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    hear hear. There is the underclass, and then the working class, and anyone who doesnt see this is entirely ignorant. the underclass were born out of working class, but now they are their own group, hence why the term is used in the wider world.
    If you read my posts you will see i say respectable and irrespectable working class. Stop being so pedantic. You say underclass and i say disrespectable wc.


    objectivist guy simply has no idea- he is predjudiced. he cannot see that his points make little sense. he wont accept what beekeeper is trying to say about how he cant make informed opinions.object- you have a biased opinion
    .

    All have biased opinions for that is the nature of opinions

    you read the mail, or whatever,
    Now whose prejudice i.e pre judhing. I do not read the mail

    you see the youths who beat grannies up, and steal cars, and you then decide that all, or most, or a lot, of "working class" people are scum.
    I never said all or most. I made the point very clear that not all wc people are like this so much i called them a seaprate group the respectable wc. You have no argument, your just using this to lauch a personal attack because i dare say you are bitter about having been proven wrong in the past.

    It amazes me that people who are intellectual, or well educated, as you are, are also blind and stupid, and make huge generalisations so easily,

    It wasn't huge, i noted many are not scum. I have also defended generalisations if you bother to read my posts.

    and take one thing and assume it must lead to the other, without looking at circumstances, without speaking to w,class people, or knowing any,
    I made it clear i was baing my views on the overall picture and so stats for example i noted a book full of info, i noted 30,000 leave without a single gcse etc

    i could go on and on in my usual ungrammatical way (be sure to comment on it inyour reply)
    No i'm not so petty as to do that.


    but i cant really be bothered to get into another argument. i keep trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but thn you post more poisonous filth.thank the world that there are not many people on this earth like you. there is no room for predjudice here.
    Why don'y you practice what your preach. READ my posts stop pre judging them.


    god i wonder what this countr would be like if left to objective guy? and i wonder what kind of upbringing he must have had that led him to have the views he possesses? he is as bad as any dirty chav- he is the precise opposite in class terms, but lets see the similarities. lets take the chav science from bb for example. he doesnt listen. he wont reason.he doesnt accept when he is wrong.he fails to take other peoples opinions into account
    .

    Of course i take them into accout, otherwise how would i couunter them?

    he has views on things he doesnt know, which is fair enough, only he treats them as absolute truths rather than seeing they are only his opinions.
    I made it clear my views were based on stats and hard facts if you read my later posts.



    no more personal comments from me now (i hope).


    Your whole post has been a personal attack. How pathetic. Why don't you deal with the actual issues on this thread and not attack one person? Ut shows ow weak your position is when you resort to such tactics.

    object, be the bigger man and just read what i have put,
    Why don't you be the bigger man?

    but dnt post back a crappy comment on how wrong i am, complete with an indignant list of the ways you and science are different
    That would be a weak response as your comments are so absurd they do not merit a response
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    (Original post by Goody1)
    Well considering you were having a go at me about stereotyping i sgguest you take a long look in the mirror hypocrit

    The difference is i provided reasoning. To be scum is to be despicable. As the figures as well as common sense most crime takes place in wc areas thus many are scum. I never said all. You never gave any reasoning for your point that foxhunters are toffs, for example no social date, no defintion of the the word etc.
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    why am i not surprised that a member of the TSR tory party calls the working class scum?
    that is ridiculous! that is prejudice! do you think that all foreigners are terrorists too? are you completely mental?
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    (Original post by telecastro_59)
    why am i not surprised that a member of the TSR tory party calls the working class scum?
    that is ridiculous! that is prejudice! do you think that all foreigners are terrorists too? are you completely mental?
    I never said they were scum. I said many are that is why i call them the disrespectabe working class, not the working class but the disrespectable working class, notice the difference.
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    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    lies, damn lies, stats.heres a lil fact for ya: working class get stopped and searched 6 times more than m.class.seek and you shall find......m.class youths are 10 times more likely to get away with cautions for commiting crimes than w.class.you know what i call scum? people who evade tax, which is a law.companies who commit fraud.companies who employ illegal immigrants for cheap labour.companies who use sweatshops in other countries. people who discriminate against class or colour or sex. i could go on and on. there is scum in every class mate, not just the w.class or the underclass.you seem to define scum by only your standards.you will now say that that is obvious, as they are your views.so i will say a clever person looks at things in a holistic way, and tries to engage more than 1 opinion to base their opinions on.]
    Isn't that undoubtedly because working class people commit more violent crime and sue drugs more. You'd expect people in working class areas to be 'stopped and searched' by the police more often. No one I know has ever been searched by a constable - you know why? Because we don't provoke it by hanging around the streets drinking, being loud and abusive. People don't get searched without a good reason.

    I don't see your moral problem with avoiding tax etc. I avoid taxation at all costs, I believe it is state-sponsored robbery. I don't feel morally wrong for doing this. Same would go for hiring illegal immigrants - in my opinion, every man should have the right to work. That's not something I believe the state has the right to take away.
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    well sorry to interrupt this little slanging match but I'm gonna try to put forward my view on the actual question - is "shameless" an accurate representation of British working classes today?

    my credentials, if you will, with regards to my eligibility to comment upon this topic are merely that yes I lived on a council estate until I was 16 and I attended the 11-16 comprehensive for this catchment area.

    Also, my A2 media coursework was "An analysis of the representation of lower socio-economic group families in British television and cinema, focusing on Shameless and Sweet Sixteen"

    But anyways:

    The first thing which I think you have to bear in mind when watching Shameless is that Paul Abbott (the creator and he wrote some of the episodes but not all of them) based the show on his own experiences of growing up on a council estate with absent parents - i.e. being brought up by his older sister (obviously reflected in the character of Fiona)

    Therefore some elements are drawn from real-life. Which is not, obviously, to say that they are representative of the entire working class (or underclass as seems to have been the agreed term - although Ian does actually work, right? and Fiona gets a job too). And yes in their life the Gallaghers experience problems that are common on many council estates - drugs, welfare dependency, social deprivation, alcohol abuse etc

    But the show (unlike some people on this thread) does not resort to stereotypes. For example, which character is involved in drugs? Steve, who, as anyone who actually watched the show will know, is actually from a middle-class background - he's even trained as a doctor. He's also the biggest criminal - a car thief. Thus the series shows an awareness that crime occurs throughout all social groups.

    It also appears that many people see the representation of the working class in Shameless as negative. But is this really the case? Yes there are problems, often stemming from deprivation, but at the end of the day there is an enormous sense of community and family on the Chatsworth estate...yes, Frank may have abandoned his children, but they still look after each other, and even him when he arrives home in a drunken stupor. And through all this, the characters still manage to have a good time (e.g. the smiles on Lip and Ian's faces as they leap over bollards on their way home from school - the picture of childhood innocence, at least for a minute!)

    So really I think that the representation is a little more balanced than it may initally seem, e.g. to casual viewers of the show. And from my own experiences, I think that essentially it is a truthful representation, though obviously it is dramatised a great deal because, let's face it, this is television and C4 need ratings so that they can get advertising revenue to make more ace programmes

    okay thats my 2 cents
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    After having to remove about 2 pages from this thread, I would ask that it remains A)On topic and B) constructive (no personal insults).
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    (Original post by strawberry_wise)
    well sorry to interrupt this little slanging match but I'm gonna try to put forward my view on the actual question - is "shameless" an accurate representation of British working classes today?

    my credentials, if you will, with regards to my eligibility to comment upon this topic are merely that yes I lived on a council estate until I was 16 and I attended the 11-16 comprehensive for this catchment area.

    Also, my A2 media coursework was "An analysis of the representation of lower socio-economic group families in British television and cinema, focusing on Shameless and Sweet Sixteen"

    But anyways:

    The first thing which I think you have to bear in mind when watching Shameless is that Paul Abbott (the creator and he wrote some of the episodes but not all of them) based the show on his own experiences of growing up on a council estate with absent parents - i.e. being brought up by his older sister (obviously reflected in the character of Fiona)

    Therefore some elements are drawn from real-life. Which is not, obviously, to say that they are representative of the entire working class (or underclass as seems to have been the agreed term - although Ian does actually work, right? and Fiona gets a job too). And yes in their life the Gallaghers experience problems that are common on many council estates - drugs, welfare dependency, social deprivation, alcohol abuse etc

    But the show (unlike some people on this thread) does not resort to stereotypes. For example, which character is involved in drugs? Steve, who, as anyone who actually watched the show will know, is actually from a middle-class background - he's even trained as a doctor. He's also the biggest criminal - a car thief. Thus the series shows an awareness that crime occurs throughout all social groups.

    It also appears that many people see the representation of the working class in Shameless as negative. But is this really the case? Yes there are problems, often stemming from deprivation, but at the end of the day there is an enormous sense of community and family on the Chatsworth estate...yes, Frank may have abandoned his children, but they still look after each other, and even him when he arrives home in a drunken stupor. And through all this, the characters still manage to have a good time (e.g. the smiles on Lip and Ian's faces as they leap over bollards on their way home from school - the picture of childhood innocence, at least for a minute!)

    So really I think that the representation is a little more balanced than it may initally seem, e.g. to casual viewers of the show. And from my own experiences, I think that essentially it is a truthful representation, though obviously it is dramatised a great deal because, let's face it, this is television and C4 need ratings so that they can get advertising revenue to make more ace programmes

    okay thats my 2 cents
    Thank you for a relevant reply, I was thinking the thread had totally gone off the rails. Rep coming your way as soon as I can dish it out.
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    (Original post by Dwight66)
    shameless is a piece of crap programme, no doubt, and surely nobody could ever be the reach the same low which is portayed in this programme. i.e. incomprehendable scum.

    Well you certainly have a high opinion of yourself, but as someone who grew up on a council estate in Manchester I would like to point out, yes, some people remind me of the characters in the drama, but you can't generalise and call people incomprehendable scum. To me, people like yourself with closed minds are too, scum, no doubt that I dislike people who swindle the benefit system and give the middle classes ammunition to use against the 'working' class but to make sweeping comments like that is bang out of order.

    As I said, I grew up on a council estate in Wythenshawe in Manchester, and I've done alright for myself. Most people would agree that I'm definately not incomprehenable scum.

    Snob.
 
 
 
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