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The MAKEPOVERTYHISTORY campaign - What does it mean for you? watch

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    (Original post by Flukey)
    so you agree, Africa should suffer, and its not our responsibiliity as a rich naiton to help out other nations, they deserve a democratic society and freedom, in which we have had for many many years. what your are implying is in my opinion sick.
    then so be it.

    to me, what you are saying is little more than patronising dribble. it makes out that african people "suffer", and that its our responsibility to keep bailing them out and lending a foot up because they arent up to it themselves as if we caused it and its our fault.

    in reality, africans are as responsible as anyone for their problems.

    luck of the draw and natural selection are facts of life. "aid" wont get rid of dictators, wont change religious and other social practices with regards to disease like aids, wont stop natural disasters like drought, wont stop civil wars. infact it'll just make everyone poorer in the end and foster a sense of dependance.
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    (Original post by technik)
    then so be it.

    to me, what you are saying is little more than patronising dribble. it makes out that african people "suffer", and that its our responsibility to keep bailing them out and lending a foot up because they arent up to it themselves as if we caused it and its our fault.

    in reality, africans are as responsible as anyone for their problems.

    luck of the draw and natural selection are facts of life. "aid" wont get rid of dictators, wont change religious and other social practices with regards to disease like aids, wont stop natural disasters like drought, wont stop civil wars. infact it'll just make everyone poorer in the end and foster a sense of dependance.
    well im sorry im going to beg to differ with someone who has such negative views, You seem to think im not proud of my country. I am ****ing proud to be British, let me believe you, i ****ing love my country, but i believe something definitely needs to be done about the poverty in Africa.
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    imagine this Bismarck, an old man is choking in front of you!!! Do you just step over him, or do you try your best to help???

    What Flukey is trying to say is that by accepting Technik's view you would just step over him and dismiss it saying "it's not my problem", whereas Flukey and a whole lot of others want to try their best to help them. We're not intending to completely revant Africa, but with the current debts that they owe they cannot begin to rebuild their economy for themselves. We just need to give them a helping hand!!!

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    (Original post by Flukey)
    i am not saying this at all, i want us to help africa, but money is a start, i want them to double the aid, but you are missing a point here bismark, what technik is implying is wrong, he is implying that we shouldn't help Africa because we are not responsible for them, and yet you have a go at me, for supporting Africa, and the makepovertyhistory campaign.
    Money is not a start. Foreign aid drives local firms out of business, makes the recipient dependent on aid, increases corruption, and reduces the importance of the country's people to its country (why bother educating the people to get a larger tax base when you get most of your budget from foreign sources?). You are harming countries by giving them aid. Doubling aid harms them twice as much. The only way poverty will be history in Africa is if Africa reforms itself, just like South Korea, Taiwan, China, etc. reformed themselves. Please name a single country which had a permanent increase in its standard of living due to aid.
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    (Original post by cattericksmiler)
    imagine this Bismarck, an old man is choking in front of you!!! Do you just step over him, or do you try your best to help???

    What Flukey is trying to say is that by accepting Technik's view you would just step over him and dismiss it saying "it's not my problem", whereas Flukey and a whole lot of others want to try their best to help them. We're not intending to completely revant Africa, but with the current debts that they owe they cannot begin to rebuild their economy for themselves. We just need to give them a helping hand!!!

    smiler
    Imagine this: the livelihood of 10 men is dependent on being allowed to help this choking man. If you help the foreign man for free, all 10 of those men will lose their livelihood and their families will starve to death. Do you still help the choking man?
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    (Original post by Flukey)
    well im sorry im going to beg to differ with someone who has such negative views, You seem to think im not proud of my country. I am ****ing proud to be British, let me believe you, i ****ing love my country, but i believe something definitely needs to be done about the poverty in Africa.
    expletives dont make you look cool.

    i contend you are the one with inherently negative views. negative about africans and their ability to rule or effect change. in the result, that might be true and if so then thats just how it will be and nothing anyone else does will change it. to assume it from the outset however, as you seem to be, is just patronising and condescending. "im a white man, im from a rich country. i know whats best. heres the cash and heres what i want you to do" type mentality springs to mind even if its not what you want to portray.
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    What does MakingPovertyHistory mean to me?

    A chance to see how many ridiculous and unsuitable situations Bono can wear a pair of f*cking sunglasses in.

    MAKE BONO HISTORY.
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Money is not a start. Foreign aid drives local firms out of business, makes the recipient dependent on aid, increases corruption, and reduces the importance of the country's people to its country (why bother educating the people to get a larger tax base when you get most of your budget from foreign sources?). You are harming countries by giving them aid. Doubling aid harms them twice as much. The only way poverty will be history in Africa is if Africa reforms itself, just like South Korea, Taiwan, China, etc. reformed themselves. Please name a single country which had a permanent increase in its standard of living due to aid.

    I see your point, but people cannot keep dieing like this, its just not acceptable for us to dismiss as if its not happening.

    Clearing the debt of the country is a start into helping rebuild they're economy. So what do you believe is the best method for helping them?

    Standard of living may not increase due to aid, but the death rate and disease rate will decrease, which is of course a start.
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    (Original post by cattericksmiler)
    imagine this Bismarck, an old man is choking in front of you!!! Do you just step over him, or do you try your best to help???

    What Flukey is trying to say is that by accepting Technik's view you would just step over him and dismiss it saying "it's not my problem", whereas Flukey and a whole lot of others want to try their best to help them. We're not intending to completely revant Africa, but with the current debts that they owe they cannot begin to rebuild their economy for themselves. We just need to give them a helping hand!!!

    smiler
    what im saying is that we should help the "old choking man" thats here in the UK. dont ignore that subtle but fundamental difference
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    right, well what you are talking about there is utilitarianism - the greatest good for the greatest number. What's a couple of extra pence per head in the UK used to donate to Africa to save millions??? How is it more beneficial not to help the masses???

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    (Original post by cattericksmiler)
    right, well what you are talking about there is utilitarianism - the greatest good for the greatest number. What's a couple of extra pence per head in the UK used to donate to Africa to save millions??? How is it more beneficial not to help the masses???

    Smiler
    i'd suggest its more beneificial to help british kids and british people.

    it also assumes a few pence per head will actually "save millions". i suspect that is flawed and false.
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    (Original post by technik)
    expletives dont make you look cool.

    i contend you are the one with inherently negative views. negative about africans and their ability to rule or effect change. in the result, that might be true and if so then thats just how it will be and nothing anyone else does will change it. to assume it from the outset however, as you seem to be, is just patronising and condescending. "im a white man, im from a rich country. i know whats best. heres the cash and heres what i want you to do" type mentality springs to mind even if its not what you want to portray.
    expletives were not put to look cool, just to emphasise my point.

    Yes i am a white man from a rich country to be honest with you, no need denying it. And yes i know money isn't the answer, but i just want something to be done about the poverty in Africa. The Africans DO have the Abiliity to change their country, but they need someone to start, and a clean slate is a help.
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    (Original post by technik)
    i'd suggest its more beneificial to help british kids and british people.

    it also assumes a few pence per head will actually "save millions". i suspect that is flawed and false.
    Africa and surround countries are actually rich in exports - the problem being that they have so many debts (which they have paid off more than thrice in interest) that they do not have any cash left after this to rebuild the economy. Removing or atleast reducing these debts allows africa he ability to help itself.

    Finally the UK is a great power, the problems that we have hear are nothing like those in Africa. When we have children dying even close to the amount that they're dying over in Africa then by all means refuse to help and reallocate some of the funds going to international aid back home. The truth being that more than half of the African population are kids - many of which Orphans.

    For the sake of the children if nothing else this aid is imperative

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    (Original post by Flukey)
    I see your point, but people cannot keep dieing like this, its just not acceptable for us to dismiss as if its not happening.
    No one is suggesting that countries that face natural disasters should not be given food on a temporary basis.

    Clearing the debt of the country is a start into helping rebuild they're economy. So what do you believe is the best method for helping them?
    Tell me how clearing the debt will help the average African.

    The best method for helping Africa is to eliminate all tariffs and eliminate all aid (except in the case of natural disasters). Force Africa to deal with its own problems with the knowledge that it won't get any help from the West if it doesn't take the necessary steps to reform its economy.

    Standard of living may not increase due to aid, but the death rate and disease rate will decrease, which is of course a start.
    No it won't. If you drive local people out of business by providing services for free that would otherwise provide employment to a large amount of people, you're forcing people into losing their job and ultimately starving.
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    (Original post by technik)
    i'd suggest its more beneificial to help british kids and british people.

    it also assumes a few pence per head will actually "save millions". i suspect that is flawed and false.
    Africans deserver they're freedom in a society. We have the freedom in the UK.
    This world would be a complete shambles if other countries didn't help each other out, e.g. British helping out Americans in the Iraq war, or Americans helping otu the British in WW2.
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    (Original post by cattericksmiler)
    right, well what you are talking about there is utilitarianism - the greatest good for the greatest number. What's a couple of extra pence per head in the UK used to donate to Africa to save millions??? How is it more beneficial not to help the masses???

    Smiler
    Because you will not be helping Africa by giving it aid? Is that so hard to understand? You will be responsible for millions of Africans losing their jobs and possibly starving just so you can feel good about yourself.
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    (Original post by Flukey)
    expletives were not put to look cool, just to emphasise my point.

    Yes i am a white man from a rich country to be honest with you, no need denying it. And yes i know money isn't the answer, but i just want something to be done about the poverty in Africa. The Africans DO have the Abiliity to change their country, but they need someone to start, and a clean slate is a help.
    but what about all that debt. they OWE people for it. what about them? their families? their companies? the governments of the countries who loan the money and then are expected to give more back in aid?

    seems ludicrous to suggest thats of benefit on the whole. infact its almost communist take from the have to give to the have not so theres a collective middle where no one has anything!
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    Right... why will the Africans loose their jobs and starve??? You're living in some sort of dream world and are failing to understand the African economic issues. They have alot of export in Africa - thus alot of money. This money is going to pay off loans that they have already more than paid off. Reducing debt would mean less money need be spent on debts and instead can be used to build schools, more exports can be used internally to feed the Africans and the government can begin to prosper once again!!!
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    Well im not even goign to bother to argue with people with such arragant and stuck up views on helping out a poor country. :rolleyes: you both sound like completely un-sympathetic tossers. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Flukey)
    Africans deserver they're freedom in a society. We have the freedom in the UK.
    This world would be a complete shambles if other countries didn't help each other out, e.g. British helping out Americans in the Iraq war, or Americans helping otu the British in WW2.
    nothing you, or anyone else, has suggested will give africans "freedom".

    what i think is really happening is that you've been paying a bit too much attention to the irish windbags (bob and bono) and have been brainwashed into thinking you have to do something, anything, regardless of what it is or what it will or will not achieve. in the end, you'll just sleep a little easier at night having "done your bit" when infact its just ignorance.

    personally i think, and as evidence appears to suggest, africa is nothing more than a black hole that just consumes money and effort. people have been trying to help for decades. funny they are still trying, still asking for more money and more "action" isnt it? makes you wonder whats actually happening to all of that effort and cash...

    take the cash, and build me some schools and hospitals. use it to pay off some of the UKs debt. YES, even we have debt!. infact, do just about anything you want with it but just dont hand it out willy nilly in another round of african pay outs just to appease some people fragile natures about "injustice in the world". if anything, its more likely to fund dictators and wars than do much good.

    its getting tired and boring.
 
 
 
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