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    (Original post by carldaman)
    If the debate will get this petty I'm getting out of here. I have other things to do.
    At least when I'm "petty", it's part of a logical conclusion..
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    and i present to you the Terrorism Act 2000 - that act gives police power to break other laws if you look like a terrorist
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    (Original post by deej2)
    Did I say anything to make it appear I had a guilty conscience?
    Well, you acted as if you were offended.
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    (Original post by JonD)
    Well, you acted as if you were offended.
    Being offended and having a guilty conscience are two different things.
    I get offended by people saying things/doing things
    I get a guilty conscience if I (or an organisation Im in) does something wrong.
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    (Original post by deej2)
    and i present to you the Terrorism Act 2000 - that act gives police power to break other laws if you look like a terrorist
    So.. what part of that (old and replaced) act justified absolute police rule? I don't remember hearing about Sir Ian Blair confiscating anyones house or dousing people he doesn't like in oil. Of course, the government do own all our press..
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    Well, there is such a thing as a news blackout - the government can order news companies what is and is not allowed to be reported.
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    (Original post by carldaman)
    Hold on-China is a very different country to the one who existed thirty, twenty, or even ten years ago. They've reluctantly accepted market reforms and the constitution has been altered to allow the ownership of private property. So, their human rights record is not great, but since you brought them up, neither is that of the United States.
    It is still run by people who enthusiastically took part in the mass murders of Mao's time with a few corrupt and brutal capitailists co-opted. Their only rule is to continue to rule and there's no reason to think they won't be just as murderous now as they have been if it is in their interests. As they never paid any attention to the constitution before there's no reason to think they will now.
    Certainly the USA has not done too well on human rights. The US courts have pointed it out and often forced amendments. There is a measure in mostrosity, though: the US government has not murdered or starved several tens of millions of its citizens for no other reason than to keep itself in power. The Chinese government- collectively and as individuals- has. You can get some idea of the morality of the chinese government. It approves of unjust courts and execution for petty offences to support its thriving body part transplant industry.
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    (Original post by deej2)
    Well, there is such a thing as a news blackout - the government can order news companies what is and is not allowed to be reported.
    Do you think this happens in the UK all the time?

    Suggesting the UK and PRC are as bad as each other doesn't help you much, btw.
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    I cannot possibly comment on whether news blackouts happen often. All I can say is that they have happened, and will happen in the future.
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    (Original post by JonD)
    I never made any suggestion of "vanquishing" them in the way you seem to have interpreted, it's you that jumped to conclusions.
    I took what you said to its logical conclusion. If you don't like socialists-why not canquish them. Either way-what I said was absurd and I think we should move on.

    I thought the thread was about the Cultural Revolution, not how much progress China made after Mao was out of the way. I did say it is the same system of government run by the same party, who own the same press that it uses to brainwash the same people that still runs China. People who it is happy to beat, murder and rob. How good are laws if the government can break any of those whenever it feels like it? Economic growth won't excuse these things until it affords some democracy and accountability.
    I could make many comparisons with other systems of government, whether democratic or not, which routinely fail their people. But you'd probably dismiss me as avoiding the point that is China. As I said before, China's human rights record is appaling and the CCCP seems to have little regard for those at the bottom of society, for whom both socialism and capitalism are failing them. But even democracies ignore those at the bottom of the social scale. The problem is that self-interested élites rule and the everyman lacks influence and/or representation. For example, in the US (corporate self interest), Mexico (Zapatista movement), Brazil (landless peasants), or China (capitalism at any cost). These élites keep people in poverty because these people are not adequately represented and lack the political pressure of the élites and those who lobby the élites. To just yell "democracy" over and over again at me does not solve the problem. Democracy is not a catch all solution, and personally I think it is a bad idea (but thats for another day).

    As for the Cultural Revolution-I do not dispute that it was horrific: the Storyville programme brought that home to me. But you cannot argue that China is still a place where the purges continue-its problems are ow very different.

    Ok I'm off out-its too nice a day to stay in. Back on tonight!
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    (Original post by JonD)
    Yes, remember that jubilant bout of Sinophillia a few months ago? Mix it in with fashionable anti-Americanism and you have an army of people who just can't wait for China to civilize the world. Judging my your moronically weak attempt to ridicule me, I'm probably right in assuming you fit into that category.
    And looking at it-this is the point where YOU mentioned modern China.

    Ok, I'm off out this time, I promise....
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    I took what you said to its logical conclusion. If you don't like socialists-why not canquish them. Either way-what I said was absurd and I think we should move on.
    If you came to that logical conclusion, I'd best express it a bit more clearly:

    1 A Superpower is a nation that rules the international roost
    1.1 A Superpower is capable of enforcing its will and values upon others
    1.2 If there is more than one superpower, it inevitably leads to conflict (Cold War, World War, Nappy War)

    2 The US rules the roost
    2.1 It is a superpower
    2.2 It regularly engages in #1.1.
    2.3 Its will and values are:
    2.3.1 Democracy
    2.3.2 Anti-Empire (Self-Determination, Decolonization, etc.)
    2.3.3 Lifestyle liberalism (Anti-slavery, anti-racism)

    3 China may be capable of ruling the roost
    3.1 It may become a superpower
    3.2 It may become capable of engaging in #1.1.
    3.3 Its will and values are:
    3.3.1 Dictatorship
    3.3.2 Empire (Colonization, against self-determination)
    3.3.3 Illiberalism (Slavery, racism, state oppression, collectivization, absolute power)
    3.4 This is slightly speculatory:
    3.4.1 Some economists don't agree #3.1 will be possible for a century
    3.4.2 China may chose not to engage in #1.2,
    3.4.2.1 However, the government is not known for restraint of absolute power
    3.4.3 China may abandon #3.3 for something like #2.3 before it gets close to #3.1

    4 Some people look forward to #3
    4.1 Because they miss the USSR
    4.2 Or/And because they are critical of #2.2
    4.3 Some need to reevaluate their position:
    4.3.1 If they don't take #1.2 into account
    4.3.2 If they haven't chosen whether they prefer #2.3 or #3.3

    The conclusion is for #4 to engage in a bit of #4.3. I never meant to suggest anyone should be thrown to the lions.
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    Mao was a murderous *******. His revolution was a sham.

    However take a look at this pic of me experiencing the best aspects of his ideology:
    The revolution starts here

    (the hats and the book)
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    believe it or not, but the book isnt all *******s.
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    (Original post by Gexko)
    Mao was a murderous *******. His revolution was a sham.

    However take a look at this pic of me experiencing the best aspects of his ideology:
    The revolution starts here

    (the hats and the book)
    Link doesnt work
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    (Original post by carldaman)
    Hold on-China is a very different country to the one who existed thirty, twenty, or even ten years ago. They've reluctantly accepted market reforms and the constitution has been altered to allow the ownership of private property. So, their human rights record is not great, but since you brought them up, neither is that of the United States.
    Are you honestly equating the human rights record of China and the US?
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    over 800,000 people were arrested in china last year for 'crimes against the state'.
    Living in china, it seems that the only action that can land you in jail is speaking out against the government. Everything else here, though illegal, is not enforced and if you do get caught you can bribe your way out of it. You even have to bribe doctors before they look at you.

    oh and read this fabulous article:
    http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4...00e2511c8.html

    My favourite part was "“If the Americans are determined to interfere [then] we will be determined to respond,” said Gen Zhu, who is also a professor at China's National Defence University.

    “We . . . will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds . . . of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese.”



    (excuse my choppy sentences, using a weird keyboard)
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    (Original post by Kondar)
    oh and read this fabulous article:
    http://news.ft.com/cms/s/28cfe55a-f4...00e2511c8.html

    My favourite part was "“If the Americans are determined to interfere [then] we will be determined to respond,” said Gen Zhu, who is also a professor at China's National Defence University.

    “We . . . will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds . . . of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese.”
    Wow, scary stuff. Good link.

    over 800,000 people were arrested in china last year for 'crimes against the state'.
    Living in china, it seems that the only action that can land you in jail is speaking out against the government. Everything else here, though illegal, is not enforced and if you do get caught you can bribe your way out of it. You even have to bribe doctors before they look at you.
    So what did you do wrong to find that out?

    See many miscarriages of justice on the street? I've heard of the execution vans and the police who rob locals from visitors.
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    (Original post by Kondar)
    My favourite part was "“If the Americans are determined to interfere [then] we will be determined to respond,” said Gen Zhu, who is also a professor at China's National Defence University.

    “We . . . will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds . . . of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese.”



    (excuse my choppy sentences, using a weird keyboard)
    Does he realize that a vast majority of Chinese people live east of Xian? :confused:
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    (Original post by Bismarck)
    Does he realize that a vast majority of Chinese people live east of Xian? :confused:
    Where is Xian?
 
 
 
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