Turn on thread page Beta

"Pupils shine brightest at grammar schools" watch

Announcements
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by yawn1)
    Regarding your anecdotal evidence of the boy you sat next to at school - I seem to remember you saying you went to an independent school - if this relates to that period then it's not really relevant is it? Or were you talking about your primary school? In which case that is not pertinent to the current discussion either. You can find the sources for most of what I have opined upon on the following link. I have spent a lot of time to try to bring this all together for you as you won't type in quotes in a search engine to get it yourself - lazy girl I hope you appreciate it!
    It's from the House of Commons - Education and Skills - Select Committee.
    http://www.parliament.the-stationery...13/513we01.htm
    I meant my primary of course, a mixed ability one. I cant agree that my example wasnt relevant either- I was talking with madnatsci earlier about how hard it is for an academic student to be in a mixed ability school where standards are low, you ought to look back a few pages. As I said to her, I think that had anti-selectionists had our experiences they'd change their tune! I can see why people are attracted to the idea of comprehensive education but I don't feel that its fair to any student, especially one at either end of the educational spectrum. Students have extremely diverse needs and I don't feel those can be met by lumping them all in together. In fact my own experience has taught me that this is so.
    I'll happily type quotes in, but I wouldnt know where to start since I'm not familiar with pro-selection campaigners. So thank you for your help, since you must know more about them then I do! But my point still stands- you havent been able to illustrate that Kent's poor performance in some areas stems from selection. I havent looked at the quotes yet, but somebody else's opinion isn't fact.
    Even were it so, all that would prove is that Kent is making a bad job of running its selective system, not that selection itself is a bad idea.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by yawn1)
    It's from the House of Commons - Education and Skills - Select Committee.
    http://www.parliament.the-stationery...13/513we01.htm
    I had a look at some of this now (theres a lot of it) but I still can't find evidence of a connection between selection and a below par performance. Is there a bit in there which said this- apart from the anti-selection group whom I think I'll take with a pinch of salt cos of their agenda.
    As a manc, I was interested to read the bit about our godawful schooling system. You know, I'm sure we weren't so far below the national average when we still had selective schools!
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by lala)
    I had a look at some of this now (theres a lot of it) but I still can't find evidence of a connection between selection and a below par performance. Is there a bit in there which said this- apart from the anti-selection group whom I think I'll take with a pinch of salt cos of their agenda.
    As a manc, I was interested to read the bit about our godawful schooling system. You know, I'm sure we weren't so far below the national average when we still had selective schools!
    i dont mean to interrupt a scholarly discussion but lala were you, or were you not the person who was constantly correcting me for my spaceyness in my posts?
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by curryADD)
    i dont mean to interrupt a scholarly discussion but lala were you, or were you not the person who was constantly correcting me for my spaceyness in my posts?
    yeah honey, I keep saying! I never understood what you were on about cos you used to write such strange things- I asked you on the islam conversion thread if you were ever stoned when you wrote? We were doing the 'how are you thing' on that thread, remember?
    You were the swimmer from Texas, yes?
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by lala)
    yeah honey, I keep saying! I never understood what you were on about cos you used to write such strange things- I asked you on the islam conversion thread if you were ever stoned when you wrote? We were doing the 'how are you thing' on that thread, remember?
    You were the swimmer from Texas, yes?
    oh yeah

    no im just left handed.....never been stoned in my life im known for being a bit spacey......its a good thing all my friends think its funni....but i have to sit outside of the french classroom all the time for randomly laughing and the like....
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by lala)
    I had a look at some of this now (theres a lot of it) but I still can't find evidence of a connection between selection and a below par performance. Is there a bit in there which said this- apart from the anti-selection group whom I think I'll take with a pinch of salt cos of their agenda.
    As a manc, I was interested to read the bit about our godawful schooling system. You know, I'm sure we weren't so far below the national average when we still had selective schools!
    Prof. Jessons's report definitely found a causal link of the polarisation between selection and secondary moderns results in Kent and Medway as education experts have! I can assume that you are pro-selection particularly as you say you will take what the anti-selection group say with a pinch of salt - hardly an unbiased comment.
    You complain that you sat next to a boy who wasn't tuned into learning whilst you were at primary school - I doubt if any of us experienced anything different in the state system at this stage as Primaries do not have selective admissions.
    The problem with Kent is that, considering it is the LEA with the largest proportion of grammars, it's achievements at A level (which are taken mainly by grammar sixth forms) are below national average. It also have the largest number of failing schools in 'special measures'. This is not just coincidence.
    My argument is that while some grammars perform well (which you expect anyway as they have the top ability range, and if they couldn't do well who could?) there are many whose performance is mediocre and their students are allowed to 'coast'. In those areas where schools are 'all-ability' and without competition for most able students from Independents, they do equally as well, if not better.
    The problem with our ranking system is that there is not a comparision of 'like with like'. If we had a table giving results of grammars compared with grammar-equivalent stream of comps. the outcome would be very different.
    I await the GCSE results due for publication on 15th January, 04. The value added from Key stage 3 to Key stage 4 (GCSE) will be very interesting.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by yawn1)
    Prof. Jessons's report definitely found a causal link of the polarisation between selection and secondary moderns results in Kent and Medway as education experts have! I can assume that you are pro-selection particularly as you say you will take what the anti-selection group say with a pinch of salt - hardly an unbiased comment.
    You complain that you sat next to a boy who wasn't tuned into learning whilst you were at primary school - I doubt if any of us experienced anything different in the state system at this stage as Primaries do not have selective admissions.
    The problem with Kent is that, considering it is the LEA with the largest proportion of grammars, it's achievements at A level (which are taken mainly by grammar sixth forms) are below national average. It also have the largest number of failing schools in 'special measures'. This is not just coincidence.
    My argument is that while some grammars perform well (which you expect anyway as they have the top ability range, and if they couldn't do well who could?) there are many whose performance is mediocre and their students are allowed to 'coast'. In those areas where schools are 'all-ability' and without competition for most able students from Independents, they do equally as well, if not better.
    The problem with our ranking system is that there is not a comparision of 'like with like'. If we had a table giving results of grammars compared with grammar-equivalent stream of comps. the outcome would be very different.
    I await the GCSE results due for publication on 15th January, 04. The value added from Key stage 3 to Key stage 4 (GCSE) will be very interesting.
    I never said that I was unbiased either, but I'm not suggesting that my views are in themselves evidence! I doubt most people had my experience at primary school actually, as the problem was exacerbated by overcrowding and underfunding, and Manchester is one of the worst performaing areas in the country (since we abandoned selection!). I'm not complaining about having to sit next to Ryan (that was his name) either- I'm pointing out that the situation we were both forced into because of forcing students of all abilities into a one size fits all class disadvantaged us both.
    By the way, I saw today a mention of the 2001 report on the issue by the NFER (national Foundation for Educational Research). It basically confirmed what I'd said before about higher performing children suffering from lower aspirations when placed into comprehensives. Those looked at fell a year behind their grammar school peers. I haven't had chance to look for a link for this though, unfortunately- you could have a look on google (sorry, cos I know you spent ages helping me to find the relevant page).
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by lala)
    I never said that I was unbiased either, but I'm not suggesting that my views are in themselves evidence! I doubt most people had my experience at primary school actually, as the problem was exacerbated by overcrowding and underfunding, and Manchester is one of the worst performaing areas in the country (since we abandoned selection!). I'm not complaining about having to sit next to Ryan (that was his name) either- I'm pointing out that the situation we were both forced into because of forcing students of all abilities into a one size fits all class disadvantaged us both.
    By the way, I saw today a mention of the 2001 report on the issue by the NFER (national Foundation for Educational Research). It basically confirmed what I'd said before about higher performing children suffering from lower aspirations when placed into comprehensives. Those looked at fell a year behind their grammar school peers. I haven't had chance to look for a link for this though, unfortunately- you could have a look on google (sorry, cos I know you spent ages helping me to find the relevant page).
    We have a problem in Kent with our primaries too - One in particular came last in England/Wales this year for Key stage 2 and 8th to last for value added - how depressing is that. In addition 25 of our primaries and 17 secondaries are in 'special neasures' because they are so appalling. All this from a selective LEA!
    Regarding your situation in your primary - what were they to do? Have a streaming set up for those little ones? There are already enough problems stemming from low morale because of perceived 'dumbness'.
    As you take the anti-selection stance with a pince of salt you should definitely do the same with NFER. They produce all sorts of publications relating to intelligence testing and 11+ preparation papers. That is where they make all their money from so don't give them much crdence either. Much research has been done into educating the able and very able which disproves NFER's contention that highly performing children suffer from lower aspirations when placed in comps. In fact, the research conclusion is that the most able do much better in comps than grammars - not sure why though.
    I have Ofsted's reviews of research into educating the very able, compiled from current international research. This is why I have the opinions I do on selective education.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by yawn1)
    We have a problem in Kent with our primaries too - One in particular came last in England/Wales this year for Key stage 2 and 8th to last for value added - how depressing is that. In addition 25 of our primaries and 17 secondaries are in 'special neasures' because they are so appalling. All this from a selective LEA!
    Regarding your situation in your primary - what were they to do? Have a streaming set up for those little ones? There are already enough problems stemming from low morale because of perceived 'dumbness'.
    As you take the anti-selection stance with a pince of salt you should definitely do the same with NFER. They produce all sorts of publications relating to intelligence testing and 11+ preparation papers. That is where they make all their money from so don't give them much crdence either. Much research has been done into educating the able and very able which disproves NFER's contention that highly performing children suffer from lower aspirations when placed in comps. In fact, the research conclusion is that the most able do much better in comps than grammars - not sure why though.
    I have Ofsted's reviews of research into educating the very able, compiled from current international research. This is why I have the opinions I do on selective education.
    Deeply depressing, but then Kent doesn't use selection for primary schools right? So in fact the fact that there are problems well before students take the 11 plus exam suggests that Kent's poor results stem from something other than selection. Just a thought.
    As regards the NFER- I didn't see much of what you suggested on their website but even if they are biased they are no less appropriate a source to quote than a body whose stated purpose is to abolish selective education.
    I would rather you refrained from using the term' dumbness' to describe students with learning diffiulties. Ryan wasn't dumb, and neither were the others with learning difficulties (well I don't think they were anyway) but they all had difficulties in a mixed ability class and continued to do so in their comprehensive secondaries. Part of this was due to their self esteem being lowered by not being able to keep up with the class. Do you not think that this rather than streaming causes low morale? I know it does, because I've seen it happen. As I've said, I can appreciate why people with your opinions hold them because it seems like being kinder, but why not provide for all children an environment specialised to meet their particular needs instead of expecting tham all to be able to function in the same kind of schooling system?
    There is of course also the class issue. When grammar schools did exist, working class children were offered a chance of the high quality streamed education which had previously only been available to their social superiors. Its no coincedence that the number of working class students at the best universities has fallen since the abolition of the grammars. In my year at my college in Oxford, I can count the number of working class students on the fingers of one hand- I'm one of the only ones. There were lots more when we as a class were not condemned to godawful comprehensives (Manc perspective again, I know some comps are good but they arent the working class ones!). And that it why I believe the option to go to a selective school should be available for us all, and not just those who can pay :P
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    lala:
    I think we've gone about as far as we can on this thread haven't we? I'm pleased that it has been conducted in a civilised way between us and mutual respect has been maintained
    But - and there's alway one - I, in no way, would ever describe someone who has a learning difficulty as 'dumbness'. I have every empathy for those who find learning difficult as my interest lies in the full spectrum of abilities. I took some time thinking what word wuld suffice to describe the low morale felt by some children and I obviously messed it up. What I was saying was that those children who failed their 11+ do, in many instances, feel that they are stupid. So to stream children at primary level into ability groups would compound that feeling right from their education foundations. Every child has a right to an excellent education suited to their abilities and interests, and I feel those are best met in their local neighbourhood schools where they can move on at 11 with their friends and brothers and sisters. This happens in many European countries and Australasia and USA. Finland has the best results in the world and over 70% of their children go to university - this in a country that has wholly comprehensive schooling.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by yawn1)
    lala:
    I think we've gone about as far as we can on this thread haven't we? I'm pleased that it has been conducted in a civilised way between us and mutual respect has been maintained
    But - and there's alway one - I, in no way, would ever describe someone who has a learning difficulty as 'dumbness'. I have every empathy for those who find learning difficult as my interest lies in the full spectrum of abilities. I took some time thinking what word wuld suffice to describe the low morale felt by some children and I obviously messed it up. What I was saying was that those children who failed their 11+ do, in many instances, feel that they are stupid. So to stream children at primary level into ability groups would compound that feeling right from their education foundations. Every child has a right to an excellent education suited to their abilities and interests, and I feel those are best met in their local neighbourhood schools where they can move on at 11 with their friends and brothers and sisters. This happens in many European countries and Australasia and USA. Finland has the best results in the world and over 70% of their children go to university - this in a country that has wholly comprehensive schooling.
    If you weren't describing anyone as a dumbass then we'll say no more.
    However, I still feel that chidren with learning difficulties are likely to suffer low self esteem if they are in a mixed ability class and fall behind- as I say I have seen it happen. I never said anything about primary streaming- as an issue I don't know much about it, I mentioned primary school because that is my experience of mixed ability schooling. I'm afraid I still don't agree that the 'one size fits all' educational approach works, its a nice idea but the reality is different. I learned that from my bitter experience, in a local school with my siblings (who also got scholarships to my secondary!) which I couldn't wait to leave so I could go somewhere which would recognise my needs.
    The Finnish example, like the one of Kent, is no proof that comprehensive education yields better results. The USA, like Britain, has a substantial private sector from which students are more likely to go to university. And the example of working class university participation in the UK rather suggests that grammars provided the poorest with opportunities which they are today denied.
    I'm also glad we have kept it civilised- I only ever insult people who are rude to me or who come out with something truly offensive, and neither of those apply to you.
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MsLite)
    Went to an independent.....these are THE BEST, any less and you're a prole..sorry, deal with it.
    What's wrong with being born a prole? Many of the best are.
 
 
 
Turn on thread page Beta
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: December 22, 2003
Poll
Cats or dogs?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.